I received several emails from writers who are interesting in having novels or books published. Half of them have no clue what to do first. I’m really not qualified to answer as I’ve never gone that route. I know many of you have published work or have attempted to have your manusrcripts published. Perhaps you can help?
My readers are interested in learning about the process. Specifically:
- How many times did you submit your manuscript before someone showed interest?
- Did you have help writing your book proposal?
- What are the steps necessary to take before submitting your book to a publishing house?
- Do you need a publicist or agent?
- What are your experiences with the process?
- What is the first thing you do?
Thanks so much!
Deb
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August 14th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
hey deb, thanks for the update. Honestly, I will just be happy to get my book out of my head, and have not even thought about hte publishing process yet… But I am writing one and my understanding, from what I’ve picked up in passing is that an agent is essential, and querying publishing houses directly is almost futile….
Also I highly highly recommend Writers Market for any aspiring novelist. Even an older edition…!
August 14th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Try Anne Wayman’s blog: http://www.writingwithvision.com
for how to get your book published.
She also has a great list of freelance jobs and I use her list and Debs to find work.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
To go along with what allycat said…the Writer’s Market website is actually a really solid investment. It’s the same idea as the big books, but the information is always up to date. I want to say it’s like $6 a month or something.
The biggest thing with publishing any book, I’m learning, is RESEARCH THE MARKET. You have to be able to show publishers what else is out there in your genre and why your book will be any different.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
I had no problems writing a book - it was a story that I wanted to write for my kids. I decided to self-publish with Author House just for the heck of it. That led to other people reading it, and it’s snowballed into about 750 sales (don’t have the last quarter in yet) and a decent fan base.
Since people loved it so much, I started sending it off to agents and publishers, as well as reviewers. The reviewers that read it have loved it, but agents and publishers simply won’t read it. As far as I’m concerned, the industry has been a total waste of time and a distraction away from writing that will actually pay the mortgage.
My advice to writers when it comes to novels: Don’t do it. It’s a big waste of time. You have better odds playing the lottery.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
> You have to be able to show publishers what else is out there in your genre and why your book will be any different.
I’m sorry, but I’m rather sure this is wrong. My book, “Downriver”, is something of a Tao Te Ching for children. It has no violence, and has a deep sense of spirituality that does not lead to a battle between good and evil. I stressed what is unique about “Downriver”, and they still didn’t read it.
If you look at the teen/young adult market, there are thousands of books that are rip-offs of Harry Potter. It is obvious that those publishers did not want anything different.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Well, just because a book is different doesn’t guarantee that it is what a publisher wants. However, I fully stand beside my advice that you have to research the market, find what IS selling, and then show how you still can jump into that booming market but with something different. That’s what is working for me, and that’s the advice I’ve received from a number of prominent publishing houses.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I’d think that would depend on the publisher, though, which would be an aspect of knowing your market. If the publisher wants fresh turns or only specific limited pulp sellers, that’s its decision.
For what it’s worth, I have seen a rather old fantasy series that seemed like Harry Potter was a spin-off; it had the wizarding school type thing, at least. I’ve not read it to know if there was more. The heroine’s name was Mathilda, I believe. (I saw those books a few years ago, so please pardon me if my memory is wrong on the name.)
I, too, am in the trying-to-finish-a-novel stage, though for me it’s actually trying-to-finish-a-few-novels. I do actually finish my stories, though; I’ve only been doing this for six years, and I’ve scrapped my first “finished” story and some other stories’ drafts as I’ve learned more about the craft by practice. I’m rather young yet, and I don’t want my age to be obvious to any reader.
I’m blessed with friends who don’t praise blindly and are willing to nitpick and say outright when they don’t like my work. I think a little bit about publishers, mostly keeping an eye on books that have some similarities to what I’m writing, so I might know what publishers like stories as… convoluted as mine tend to get.
Not necessarily in the plot, mind you, but I tend to start with a premise and run with the implications, then the implications of those implications, and so forth. I also tend to come up with story ideas that need extremely careful handling to work out properly, which is why I work so carefully.
(One of my plot ideas in particular has interested every single fiction reader I’ve mentioned it to, though they all say the resulting book could be VERY good or bad. Another one could end up giving the opposite message from what I intend if I mismanage it.)
I have recently realized, however, that my rereading what I’ve written of the novel before continuing probably is hindering me more than it’s helping. So I’m going to start trying to limit that, and I’m starting to plan more before I sit down and write. It’s not fun to almost finish a novel draft and realize that you got so caught up in a scene that you kidnapped the wrong character.
My research about publishing has led me to believe, though, that any novelist who wants his book to sell should market his novel himself and not rely on the publishing company to do it, and that he should avoid vanity presses.
Agents, I understand, aren’t necessarily necessary, but they can get your book published when you can’t, and the good ones don’t charge up front. So it’s kind of like a realtor—you can find a new house without one, certainly, but the realtor knows things about the market that you can’t and might be able to find something better for you.
I know that wasn’t quite the question, but it’s related.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Erik –
Yes, actually, I have heard before that the best book proposal demonstrates that the author knows what other books are out there on the subject. Editors want to know what the competition is, and why your book will be salable when there are other, similar books on the market.
Honestly, part of your problem may be that you used AuthorHouse. I’ve heard that using a disreputable vanity or POD publisher can hurt your chances for publishing a book traditionally. AuthorHouse, I’m afraid, does NOT have the best reputation. They have a habit of publishing virtually anything, which is going to make any traditional publisher doubt if your book is actually any good.
AuthorHouse is also known for being a rip-off. (Read about it here, here, here, and here.) Unfortunately, publishing your book with a publisher with that kind of reputation may also make a traditional publisher think you were desperate to get published.
Another potential problem you might be having — do you have conflict in your novel? That is essential for a successful plot. Maybe when you tell publishers and agents about how your book doesn’t have violence or the typical good-versus-evil plot line, you are inadvertently giving the impression that your book doesn’t have a strong plot.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
I hear what allycat is saying “I will just be happy to get my book out of my head”… I have been working out characters and plot in my mind and notebook what seems like forever!
I have been using the books “See Jane Write” and “Will Write for Shoes” to get ideas for how to proceed. There are some great exercises that will help jumpstart character development and plot, especially if you are interested in writing “chick lit.”
And to those of you at the publishing phase of your writing… Congratulations, I am jealous!
August 14th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Misti –
That’s similar to my take on agents, too. They are helpful, but not necessary. The biggest problem is that many major publishing houses refuse to deal with unagented authors. I think agents function as a valuable filter for publishing houses — the publisher knows that the manuscripts submitted by an agent are already the best of all the submissions that agent has received, and therefore much more likely to be publishable material.
My beef with traditional publishing houses is their cutthroat approach — read How to be Your Own Literary Agent to see what I mean. I am considering publishing through Booklocker when I have a book ready to go. Either way I’ll most likely be responsible for marketing, as you pointed out Misti, but at least then I will retain the rights to my own work.
August 14th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I have to agree with Allison on this one. Most of the publishing houses I am looking to work with require a proposal that includes a competitive analysis, with titles of competing books and information on how your book differs from each.
Even if your book is unique, however, there’s no guarantee it will be picked up. The market for the topic might be too small or a publishing house may not be interested in a particular genre. I recommend Writer’s Market for finding out information on what specific houses are looking for in a book.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Writer’s Market is definitely a must-have for any aspiring book author. However, I also highly suggest visiting a publisher’s website to look for updates or changes before submitting. You can probably get away with using a slightly outdated edition of the book, since most publishers’ guidelines are also online these days.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Katharine:
I make it clear that there is conflict - in fact, I describe it as a “journey in search of payback”. Nothing.
What you say about AuthorHouse may be a problem - they were the best deal for me based on my interest in doing everything myself. A lot of people go with lulu, and they have their reasons. I was interested in getting it printed.
That’s the thing with the industry - you have to play their games. I just wrote a book and wanted to see it in print. A lot of people have read it, and I do local fairs and all that. So far, my fans love it. But that’s apparently not the way the game is played, so there’s no interest in the publishing world.
The time spent learning to play their games is a big investment, and I don’t think that most people will find it to be one that pays off. If you are rich enough to afford that time without writing something that will pay your bills, go for it. I’m not.
If you want to write for the fun of it, that’s another story. Keep your overhead low, print it at lulu, and sell copies yourself and coffee shops. You might get a decent fan base out of it, as I did. It’s gratifying, and I love my fans.
But the publishers require a rather absolute fealty from you before they accept you as one of their own - and that’s just not something most working people with lives can afford. If you’re very wealthy, and if you either have friends in the industry or can afford to pay people to pretend they are your friends, go ahead.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Here’s a calculation to do:
If I write grants, I get $80 per hour. I don’t do that all the time, but I must average $50 an hour in the time I’m working.
To write a novel, you’re going to need something along the lines of 1000 hours. That’s ballpark, but it’s half time for a year.
Researching what the industry wants and sending off queries in the format each publisher wants (and they are all different) is probably another 500 hours or so.
In that 1500 hours, I should be able to make $75,000. If you think my hourly rate is high or the time spent on it is high, do your own calculation.
Now, ask yourself: What are the odds you’ll make $75,000 (or whatever you came up with) off of your novel?
I’ll give you a hint - they are close enough to zero to make a Powerball ticket look pretty good in comparison.
Consider the opportunity cost here, folks. There are better ways to spend your time. Now, if you have something to say, as I did, and you don’t care about the sharks in suits, that’s different. You can self-publish and do what you want with it. But if you are researching the market to find something that will sell, you’re doing this purely as a profit-making venture. And I have to tell you, the odds of this beating the opportunity cost you left behind are pretty damned low.
Think about what you’re giving up by going this way. Think about how you pay your mortgage while you are playing the games of the industry. You’ll realize it’s a big waste of time. I certainly realized that - a bit too late, I’m afraid. I don’t play their games anymore as a result. They aren’t worth it.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Erik –
You seem awfully bitter. Plenty of people who are not wealthy become authors and see a profit from it. They don’t all become Stephen King, but I don’t think it is impossible.
I myself am planning on devoting 1/3 or so of my daily work to fiction, starting in a few weeks. (I am trying to finish up a large project that has become the “never-ending project” first.) I plan to self-publish through Booklocker, market on my own, and concentrate on building online and local followings. I have no delusions about being the next Harry Potter or Da Vinci Code, and I certainly don’t think there is anything shameful or disappointing about being only moderately successful.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
I don’t know, I think 1000 hours is kind of high. Can anyone else who has completed a novel report how many hours it took them?
I participated in NaNoWriMo last November. My 50,000 words took me about 60-90 hours to complete. It still needs revisions and editing, but still, I would think another 60-90 hours and it will be done.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
Good literature is never a waste of time. If it becomes one, we die as a culture. Writing a novel or non-fiction book is not the same as taking a job as a grant writer or a web content writer. You can’t put prices on it the same way because the work you do is very, very different. If writing doesn’t make sense for you in regards to money, that is fine, but for most of the people here, it is NOT a waste of time.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:45 pm
You said that better than I could have, Allison. And you’re right — I don’t want to write fiction for the money. (That’s why I can only afford to spend part of my time on it.
) I want to because I enjoy writing fiction, just as much as (and possibly more than) I enjoy reading it.
August 14th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
I always think about the fiction/non-fiction or technical writing difference based on who is reading the material. Few people (the exception being those inside of publishing) read fiction for pay. In contrast, people HAVE to read non-fiction/technical writing throughout their lives in order to get their work done. Anyone who has worked an office job has read a report, memo or instructions that are written. The same is true for those writing the material. There is always a market for grant writing, technical writing, etc. but if novelists threw their hands up and gave into pressure to let their dreams die, we might as well start burning books. It isn’t all about the money, it is about creating a marketplace of ideas.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Allison and Katharine:
If you want to write real literature, I say go for it. Make it a hobby or whatever. Publish it yourself, and circulate it as you can.
I love the reaction “Downriver” gets from fans. I’m glad that I can make a difference in the lives of kids, too.
Studying the market for a work you can sell is very different than writing literature. That’s a purely economic decision, and I don’t see the point in that.
Am I bitter? Perhaps. I just think that these guys are into a power trip, from what I can tell. Real humans don’t ask you to throw a work you put so much time into over their fence, and then ignore it. The lack of a human touch is rather appalling to me. I realize the volumes are very high and blah blah, but I can’t imagine why anyone would want to make a living by pleasing people who behave so cowardly.
I wasted a lot of time pursuing this. It’s time I could have spent with real people instead of a “system”. I don’t believe in “systems”, I believe in people. That may make me a romantic, but whatever. More importantly, I know that great works go unpublished in this “system”, and that means they are leaving money on the table - that’s possibly the worst sin of all.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Quoted from Katherine Swan:
“I participated in NaNoWriMo last November. My 50,000 words took me about 60-90 hours to complete. It still needs revisions and editing, but still, I would think another 60-90 hours and it will be done.”
I guess it all depends on what you’re writing and why. A simple straightforward story written solely for fun would take less time than one that’s multifaceted and multipurposed. And building a fantasy world can take longer than figure out than another setting.
And there are differences between writers, like C.S. Lewis’s 1 year per Narnia book and Tolkein’s 14 years on The Lord of the Rings.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Erik –
Don’t forget that agents and publishers are also inundated with cr*p. No doubt many of those writers think they are the next Shakespeare, and blame the “system” for overlooking their work, too.
Dealing with people instead of the system is one of the reasons why I’ll publish with with Booklocker, by the way. They have a reputation for spending a lot of one-on-one time with authors.
Misti –
I’m sure some things take longer than others. The writer’s habits probably contribute to the amount of time it takes, too. Charlotte Bronte wrote Jane Eyre in just a few months. Same for Louisa May Alcott and Little Women. And that’s handwritten manuscripts!
As for Lord of the Rings — didn’t Tolkien take so long to write it partially because World War II prevented him from working on it for several years?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
I’ve published four books. 3 Non-fiction (much easier) 1 fiction.
The fiction novel - I’ve been writing on and off for 14 years (yes really). Sent proposals to the major romance houses, got as high as a looking at a partial, asked for rewrites and then rejected. On the next rewrite I submitted the novel to Siren for a contest and I won. Waiting for Ethan was published as a paperback.
Non-fiction you pitch BEFORE you write. Love that.
I was a toy collector writing for a toy magazine so I pitched a book on TV toys to the same publishing house that did the mag. I had to write a proposal showing how my book was marketable and different and some samples.
My second book came from never giving up. Loved Buffy the Vampire Slayer so I wrote tons of articles then pitched and pitched books at the license holding publisher. Kept getting rejected and finally they bit and I wrote the Official Buffy the Vampire Slayer Pop Quiz for Pocket.
My third book played off that one. I read Publisher’s Weekly and saw an article about a computer company getting the rights to Pokemon. Figuring they had only “tech” writers on staff, I pitched my knowledge of TV and trivia and they said yes. Then they said no. Then (I kid you not) More than a year later they called me out of the blue and said the project was a go again, was I still interested. Thus I wrote The Pokemon Master Quiz Book for Sybex
So it’s push, push, do your homework, never give up.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:44 pm
If you’d like to write a novel and make money, you need to avoid the self-publishing route. It is possible to get your book into B&N, Borders, etc. that way. Honestly, though, your chances are not too hot.
You need to get an agent. Getting an agent is about as tough as it is for the agent to sell a book to a publisher. As has been stated here already, your book has got to stand out from all the rest. Agents read tons of crap every day. Your book can actually be written like crap, but if that’s the case then you have to be a celebrity or public figure or have such a bizarre, compelling and/or beyond amazing story that no one cares you stink.
Otherwise, you need to be a good writer. You don’t have to try to create a meditative work of art with every sentence. But you have to tell a story in a way that’s never been told, and you have to convince the agent that you are worth the time trying to get you published. But do not contact an agent and try to sell your idea by saying things like - No one has ever written or read anything like my book ever in the history of everything, which includes not just everything that has happened, but everything that ever will happen, too!
Your writing can be silly, but make sure you are a professional. You know those morons on American Idol who get rejected during the giant auditions? SIMON IS A @#$%! THEY HAVE NO IDEA THEY JUST TURNED DOWN THE NEXT SUPERSTAR, THEY HAVE - ugh. Don’t be like this. Just be normal.
You will be rejected by agent after agent after agent. Almost all the time, you will never know why the agent turned you down. If your story reeks, you may never know it does, and you could keep going through life convinced you are the next JK Rowling, minus the prestige, bank account, stature, publishing credits, fame, respectability and about 14,727 other things she has and you don’t. Many agents turn down clients because they don’t represent your kind of story, or they’re not taking on a new client, etc.
Research the agents. With your first book, don’t expect you’re going to sign with a fancy NYC firm like William Morris. But don’t think you have to settle for Johnny Crapcakes in Noodle, Texas. There are lots of places to get information on how to find an agent. Work hard in compiling a proper list for you.
If you are dead serious about writing, you don’t punch a time clock for your work. If it takes 1,000 hours or 10,000 hours or a lifetime to get the result you’re looking for, then that’s what it takes. You wanna be a writer? Then freakin’ write.
Write every day. You have to do this. This is a non-negotiable issue. Even if you don’t use what you’ve written for a particular story, save it and maybe you can come back to it down the road. Save everything. I’ve saved 1- or 2-sentence fragments, I’ve saved giant passages. Who knows where that stuff will go. Maybe it won’t go anywhere. But keep it just in case.
If writing for fun is all you want, then don’t do any of the above stuff. If you want to try to make money (no guarantees, of course) be more professional. Understand that there are only a few writers who ever make a decent living at this. You might be one of them some day, however. Keep the faith, believe in what you do, blabbedy blah blah.
Good night and good luck.
August 14th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Katharine:
I think we basically agree, you just find me angry and bitter.
You are right, there are too many submissions to read as it is. So why hasn’t anyone set up something like a system to deal with it? I could see a paid review that gets you rated on key points - plot, characterizations, etc. That rating tells you if you should be published, need work, or should fuggidaboudit. I’d be willing to pay once to get good feedback, but the current system has a lot of people with their hands out so they can give you smoke in return. Nah.
Imagine a Minor League kind of system, based on identification and development of talent. They go hand in hand. What would such a system look like? I’m sure it’d produce some great talent and get some new voices to the top if done well.
I just saw this bit from an agent, and the guy was well meaning and honest so I did not get righteously pissed off at him. But he said that if you self publish a novel, AND you have built a following of 1,000 or more, AND you have another one in the can ready to go, he’d be sure you had what it takes to succeed. He was completely straight-faced about this, and didn’t even realize what kind of time commitment (and opportunity cost) this required. What this said to me is, “We don’t want people with real lives - we want people that live in Literary Land 24/7″. I think people need to know about this.
I also think that this excludes a tremendous number of people with clear voices and realistic points of view - people that readers might connect with very well. That’s a lot of money left on the table, believe me. And someday, someone will find a way to take it, too. But I doubt they will come from today’s publishing industry.
I’ll look into Booklocker, that’s the kind of reccomendation I like to see. Thanks!
(Do I still sound bitter?
)
August 14th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
I’m currently editing my first finished novel. I’ve sent out the query letters (about 30-40 of them) and received about 20 rejections thus far. I could let that make me bitter, but I don’t. Rather, I think of each SASE that lands back in my mailbox like a lotto scratcher. I know the chances of my penny revealing 100 million bucks is extremely slim, but I still scratch with the same hope and excitement. In fact, I have one “scratch ticket” envelope sitting right here by my laptop, waiting for me to slide my finger under the seal and reveal my winnings. And hopefully, today will show me a decent return.
I have a backup plan, though. I plan to use LULU.com later this year if I have no bites. Then I will continue to edit this, my first, novel and also work on my second novel, which I’m about 10,000 words into.
I write for work. I write for play. And hopefully someday, I’ll write novels for pay.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:43 pm
I feel compelled to add, if you’re writing a novel for the money - don’t bother. If you’re not writing for the love of writing, you might as well give up now.
Publishing a novel is just a bonus.
August 14th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Quoting Erik Hare:
What this said to me is, “We don’t want people with real lives - we want people that live in Literary Land 24/7″. I think people need to know about this.
Um, yeah, that sounds bitter to me. Sorry. I think we do agree on some things, but I think the main difference is that you see a lot of it as a waste of time. I don’t.
I also hate all the “You’ll never make it as a novelist” cr*p. Quite honestly, that’s what people told me when I decided to go freelance. Clearly they were wrong.
I don’t expect to be the next J.K. Rowling. That would be silly. At the same time, though, I know I am a good writer and that I have plenty of potential as a novelist.
We should all check back with each other in a year and see where we’ve all ended up…
August 14th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Cynthia, I agree — a little bit. I think that writing a novel should, indeed, be primarily because you love doing it. However, I think in order to publish it and be successful, you also need to be passionate about something other than writing — whether it’s getting published or getting paid, there has got to be something compelling you to keep trying to publish your novel.
But it’s a passion for writing that’s going to give you something worth publishing in the first place.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Hey, Erik - I can certainly understand your frustration. I was absolutely clueless about the publishing industry until a few years ago. (Now I’m only mildly baffled.)
But you have to understand that a commercial publishing company is interested in making money first and foremost. They don’t care how incredible a writer you are. They really do not. If you can sell gobs of books they want you. This is a mental hurdle I think many first-time writers face. I know it was for me. They are in the business of selling, and you’ve got to provide a product that sells.
However, think about it just as a reader yourself. Not sure how many books you buy each year, but it can be an expensive pleasure. When a potential reader sees your book (hardcover), your story has to convince that person to pay $20, give or take, for it. That’s usually not breaking the bank, but your story has to convince a reader that it is worth the time to read it. You can’t go through a Harry Potter novel like a Harry Potter book. I’ve read Harry Potter books relatively fast, I guess - like 2 or 3 days. But it’s still a considerable time investment during those days. I could have chosen to do any number of things, but I chose to read the book.
Is your story worth it to the reader to give up his money and time? Your story must be able to grab a reader by the collar and say - TAKE ME, YOU BIG LOVEABLE LUG, YOU!
Unless you are so beyond gifted it’s sick, you will have to commit your entire soul to writing a book. This may come easier to some than others, but the effort still must be made. The agent who told you what he did with a straight face is not unique in his thinking. You are a commodity to an agent and to a publishing house. That is not necessarily a bad thing - in fact, it’s a great thing if you want to make a living at this.
If you just want to write because you think of yourself as only an artist, I find nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think it’s a hell of a lot more admirable because you’re devoting part of your life to something that may never be appreciated by more than a handful of people, or maybe just you. That’s a pretty powerful kind of dedication. (Certifiably insane, perhaps?)
However, if you (in general) can’t adjust your way of thinking beyond that, while at the same time expect to make money at it, then you’re wasting your time.
An agent is the liaison between you and the publisher. A good agent knows so much more than a writer, especially one who’s never sold a book. Most writers need that kind of ally, even veterans, because then you can just devote your time to writing only.
You have to understand that agents go through so much garbage every single day. The plow through total junk at work, at home, on weekends, on the plane, on vacation, etc. It’s an endless stream of crap. If you’re serious, you must take the time to make sure you don’t go from the slush pile to the ocean barge of trash headed for Mississippi, or whatever the hell happens to garbage in NYC these days.
An author may have endlessly worked months or years to finish The Great American Novel. Just know that it only takes about 30 seconds to take a gander and then heave your life’s work in the waste bin. An agent’s day is far too busy to do anything other than trash a poor manuscript or mail it back to you (as long as you pay for it.)
You have to dedicate your life to it. If you’re working some other job, it can seem impossible. But I’m serious - if you want this bad enough you will find a way to do it. You have to know deep down if you’re really ready for that challenge. It is genuinely a difficult challenge, and that’s why agents are so demanding - it is because publishers are demanding. And publishers are like that because the reading public is ultimately the Grand Demander of All.
I have no doubt you’re correct in thinking there are many people out there who could conceivably come up with a good story, or even a powerful and great story. But can they relay that story to a reader very well? Does the story deliver what it promised? Does the reader get caught up in another world for a little bit? Can you make someone, who is sitting in their room all alone, laugh out loud once, or twice, or for 15 straight chapters? Can you make someone cry or make them change some part of how they see the world or live their life? Ten years from now, 30 years from now - do you have the ability to make some person you have never met and will never ever know feel compelled to remember something you once wrote?
When you write, try to think about what you would demand as a reader. That’s helped me a lot - what the heck would I want?
Not everyone is going to want what you do, of course. But ultimately you have to be able to make some sort of connection with a reader, and you need to do some careful thinking to accomplish that.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Don’t get too frustrated. If you’re really serious about writing and you work hard at it and honestly dedicate yourself to writing at your best, you’ll be so ridiculously better off than the countless others who flat-out know they are the next Hemingway and that the rest of the world just doesn’t get it yet.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Wow… quite the debate!
I think that most novelists write to create something worth reading, not to get rich quick. Writing is just like any other art, if it is in you to create there is no avoiding it.
While it is practical to say “I need to make x amount of money per hour with my writing,” chances are, that approach will only feed your wallet and not your passion.
I try to keep a balance… work that pays and work that satisfies. Sometimes I am lucky enough that the two overlap, but I would never chuck my passion out the window simply because it wasn’t lucrative.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
I fully expect to be the next Steven King or JK Rowling or Anne Rice (or whomever you love). 100%. Everyone has their own ways of motivating themselves, and every time I hear “you’re kidding yourself,” it only fuels my fire.
Personally, I believe that publishing anything - from an article to a novel - takes a LOT of belief in yourself, so I couldn’t imagine not believe that someday my work is going to be a household staple. I guess that approach doesn’t work for everyone, but for those of you reading but not chiming in, DON’T DOUBT YOURSELVES. Hey, it could happen!
August 14th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Amen Allison!!!
Why not be the next Dan Brown or whomever? JK Rowling probably never expected to be where she is either. You never know, your story could be the next big thing.
I don’t think anyone should ever give up.
August 14th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Allison and Lauren –
I agree that we shouldn’t give up! When I say that I don’t expect to be the next J.K. Rowling, it’s not because I’m not ambitious or because I believe in giving up. It’s because the only things I expect are the ones in my control. I can write my book, persevere until I get it published, and market the heck out of it, but the public’s opinion is more or less out of my hands.
However — as you noted, Lauren — J.K. Rowling didn’t exactly expect to end up richer than the queen. Stephen King reports being absolutely stunned at his success with Carrie. These writers didn’t expect fame and fortune — they simply set goals they knew they could reach, and kept trying until they got there. The fame and fortune just happened to come along for the ride.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Exactly Katharine, I am with you 100%. It doesn’t matter what “job” you have, you never know how much success you could encounter. All that is just an added bonus.
August 14th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
I think some of you have missed my point. I’ll try to be succinct. Ready?
I think writing a novel is great. I wrote “Downriver”, and I’m quite sure it’s better than 99% of the books in the Teen/Young Adult category (not that this is a high standard).
But I don’t think you should do it for money. In fact, I don’t think you should worry about getting it published. Nevada has a good plan - give publication a shot, and if that doesn’t work go with lulu.
I would never have tried to get “Downriver” published were it not for the questions from my fans. Between that and the praise I heard, I thought I should give it a shot. I wound up wasting a lot of time that would have been better spent making money, working with the kids at the Rec Center, or even playing golf - and I *hate* golf!
If you write it for yourself, you’re not writing it for the book industry. Screw ‘em. And if you did want to write for them, it probably won’t work anyways. I say, write what you want and if it catches on, Mazeltov! But don’t expect that it will.
Oh, and one commandment writ in stone - always give everything to your fans, when you get some. If they ask why you aren’t published, tell them … I can’t answer that one yet. Maybe you can tell them that you’re a rebel without a reason and you’re out on your own, bay-bee. I dunno. Most people don’t understand why good material isn’t published in the regular industry.
Short version: You have a lot of good reasons to write a novel or any other story that moves you. You have no constitutional right to expect it will be published, however. This should not bother you. Time spent with the publishing industry is probably time wasted. I say, keep writing instead - you’ll feel better about yourself and probably make a better living in the process.
Once again: Writing a novel and having it published are two separate things. One is beautiful, and one is ugly. As Lao Tzu would observe, we might only appreciate the beauty because of how it is measured against the ugliness. But I don’t see why it has to be *that* ugly to meet any decent Taoist test.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Erik –
Succinct, huh?
At any rate, I think you’re right on most counts. I agree that traditional publishing can be pretty ugly. Publishing houses try to screw authors out of every cent they can. However, I think the alternative — POD publishing — can be a really good alternative, depending on which publisher you go with. And I still consider it publishing.
The other place I disagree was where you knocked YA fiction. I actually think most YA books are better written than their bestselling adult counterparts. In fact, YA probably accounts for a quarter to a third of what I read on a regular basis.
August 14th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Katherine:
I don’t remember if Tolkein took a brake, but even if he did, I’m not convinced that it wouldn’t have taken him much shorter. Something I”m currently learning from experience is that a fantasy world can need breaks from the actual writing to simmer in your mind to help you subconsciously build it and recognize errors in it.
Quote from Nevada:
I write for work. I write for play. And hopefully someday, I’ll write novels for pay.
That is precisely how I feel about it! The Lord certainly gives me enough story ideas to write novels.
Frank:
That quote about many people being able to come up with a great story but maybe not being able to write it makes me wince. That’s my situation with one of my story ideas, right now.
Allison:
Not quite like you, I hope to be a bestselling author, but I don’t let myself expect it. It’s in God’s hands, and I honestly am not sure if being a bestselling author would be very good for me.
As a note to everyone, never underestimate youngsters. One of my friends—age 8 when I started writing, and 14 now—gives me much of the best input on plots I come up with. And I do mean “input”, not “mindless praise.”
I agree that the YA market is stronger than many give it credit for. Fine, the writing of some popular Young Adult books isn’t all that great, but when Rowling confuses the reader, at least it’s on purpose. Unlike, for example, Terry Brooks.
The young adult novel Twilight is among the best-written romance novels I’ve ever read—not that I’ve read many romances past a few pages. It’s cotton candy in its sappiness, and I still like it. I usually excuse myself swiftly whenever a friend tries to coax me into reading a sickeningly sweet romance. Twilight knows its sweetness and makes fun of it.
I could give other examples, but I’m getting off topic and need to get back to my own little world. Er, one of ‘em, anyway.
August 14th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Misti –
You inspired me to try to find where I’d read that Tolkien took some breaks throughout writing Lord of the Rings. It was actually in the “Foreword to the Second Edition,” as it is printed in my set:
“…the composition of The Lord of the Rings went on at intervals during the years 1936 to 1949… The delay was, of course, also increased by the outbreak of war in 1939…”
It doesn’t mention it in the foreward, but I believe that Tolkien actually fought in the war, which obviously would have meant a break in writing. The section also describes numerous starts and stops along the way.
Also, don’t forget that The Lord of the Rings is actually six books (not three!).
While I’m sure that writing fantasy often does require little breaks to allow you to come back to the “real world,” my question was actually about the number of hours needed to write a novel. A thousand hours still sounds extremely high to me, but perhaps I just write fast. I have timed myself, and when writing fiction I average about 1,000 words an hour.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Honestly, I really don’t want to go the POD route myself. This has been the problem plaguing me all last year, actually. Finally, I’ve decided that when I do finish my manuscript, I’ll be enlisting the help of agents instead. There are agents who don’t charge reading fees and I heard from the publishing grapevine that those agents are usually the ones who care most about their clients. I just hope that’s true.
Of course they charge killer commissions: 15% for international clients mostly, I think. But without contacts in publishing houses, I’m basically on my own as are a lot of other writers.
August 15th, 2007 at 7:09 am
Katherine:
Actually, The Lord of the Rings is one book.
It was the cost of paper after WWII that made the publisher divvy it up so people would buy it, much to Tolkien’s chagrin. (He particularly disliked the title of The Return of the King, since it gave away the story.)
I’m also pretty sure he didn’t fight in WWII; he was teaching at a major college during the entire time he was writing The Lord of the Rings—Oxford, I believe. He may have fought in WWI, though.
I did an oral report on a book about Tolkien five years ago, so that helped me remember some of the details it mentioned about Tolkien and Lewis. Just not the spelling.
I think I average about 500 words an hour, myself, but those words might or might not end up scrapped. (I keep computer files titled “Scraps” for each story to drop scrapped parts into.) I also tend to at least try to be very deliberate about individual word choices.
So I can be quite a slow writer.
It also doesn’t help that I’m still trying to figure out what organizational methods work best for me to plan stories. And I really don’t know the first thing about building a world map.
I’m planning to attempt the agent route when I finish a book, but I’m willing to consider POD if it looks like that would be the better option for the market once I’m done with my own manuscript.
August 15th, 2007 at 7:18 am
After finishing my novel earlier this year (I don’t know how many hours I put into it–I just know it took me 2 years from beginning to a final draft after many, many revisions) and going through the entire querying/rejection process, I’m still hopeful. I’ve received about 2 dozen rejections so far, but an agent recently requested my first chapter after reading my query (I’m awaiting word). No one will make it as a novelist if they give up.
As writers, it’s essential that we do our homework. You need to have the current Writers Market & know who your contacts are. People move around in publishing, just as in other businesses. Bottom line: it’s a business. They want to make money. That’s why the big houses promote the same top authors year after year & invest very little (if anything) in unknowns. I don’t get upset about it because I knew that going in.
The reason self-publishing gets such a bum rap is because although there are good books published that way, there are also very bad books. Anyone who can afford the fee can get published.
After being a freelance writer for eleven years and researching the industry for almost as long, this is my advice for anyone wanting to publish books the traditional way:
1. Do your homework. Research the market and make sure you’re sending your work to the right house, the right editor/agent. Make sure they publish your genre. See what titles they’ve currently published. See who their clients are. Don’t waste anyone’s time by sending out blind queries.
2. Attend writers conferences. This is the best way to meet agents and editors. Don’t be a pest, however, because they’re extremely busy people. Find out what they want before you go; if they only want three chapters, then have your three chapters ready. Don’t shove an entire manuscript at them if they don’t want whole MSs.
3. Have your work critiqued. This doesn’t have to be done by a professional (and I really caution against that because some unscrupulous people will scam you). You need unbiased critics, preferably other writers, especially ones who write in your genre. Join writers groups if you need to. If one group isn’t the best fit for you, move on to the next.
4. Make sure your work is the best it can be. Polish, polish, polish. Revise, revise, revise.
5. Be professional. Send agents what they ask for, on plain white paper without the cutesy fluff and fonts.
6. Be prepared to market yourself. Publishers rarely give new authors much promotion, unless the new author’s book has generated quite a buzz already. With all the competition out there, you have to get your name out. Set up a website (again, this doesn’t have to cost an arm and a leg; domain names are inexpensive nowadays and there are plenty of web-building tutorials/sites for the non-techies among us). Plan how you’re going to sell your book. Do you have media contacts? If so, use them.
August 15th, 2007 at 7:32 am
I still continue to send my ms out from time to time. But one book I’d recommend is the writer’s market 2007 or 2008, this has a lot of the markets to send the ms. Hope this helps.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:10 am
As a note on del’s helpful list (thank you, del!), I’d like to point out that friends can offer good critique. It all depends on the friend and the personality. I know from experience that friends can be harsher than others on the critique.
Then again, I also have an unusual number of friends who at least dabble in writing and are skilled in analytical thinking, so that probably helps.
If you use friends to critique something, you get the best feedback if you use a discerning ear with what they say. Pay attention to what kind of books those friends like and why, listen to their words, and you’ll know what each friend is evaluating when they read. One might be more interested in the background and characters rather than any skill in plotting; another might prefer a tightly-woven logical plot over anything else.
It’s also a good idea to be careful what you tell friends about a story before you hand it to them. You don’t want to end up with an unnoticed confusing section that makes sense to all your friend-critics because you explained the story to them in detail at the start.
Still, in either event, you must have patience and a thick skin. If you fly off the handle or get defensive when a friend says your short story has a plot hole a mile wide (and proves it), your friends won’t be willing to aid you.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:17 am
Good idea, Misti.
I think friends who are voracious readers instead of writers make good critiques. I have some friends who’ve read an entire library but can’t write even if it would save their lives. Why are they good candidates? Well, they’d only compare your manuscript to what they’ve read. You would never ever hear a “Now, if it were me…” kind of comment.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:46 am
As a writer who has worked to get both fiction and non-fiction published, and as a coach who helps writers and other creative sorts, I think it is really important to distinguish between the process of getting a non-fiction book published and the one of getting a work of fiction published.
First, for both–agents are important. They can open doors and speed up the process that you as a first-time author-wanna-be can’t. Some will even take the time to help you polish your manuscript before it starts making rounds.
That being said, it is also true that many houses will accept unagented submissions IF you do your job doing research to find the right house, AND write a really, really good query letter (the writer’s version of a sales pitch).
It is also true that the smaller to medium presses are more likely to be open to this than the monoliths like Simon & Schuster. They are also likely to take even longer to get back to you because they are short-staffed.
And, like everything else in this world, including writers, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly of both agents and publishers which is why it pays to do research. And a reputable agent NEVER charges to look at your work or represent it. THey get a percentage of your money from the publisher. It is also important to have the patience of Job here because agents and editors alike are swamped and it can takes months and even a year to hear back from some of them. So keep sending out - don’t wait to hear from any particular one before going on to the next - with rare exceptions - and there are always those.
For fiction and non-fiction, you may have the joy of hearing an editor is interested in your book and even wants it (voice of experience here) only to discover that he or she cannot sell the idea to the publisher and/or the marketing team. As mentioned in previous comments, in order to keep publishing and selling books, the publisher needs to make money, ergo your book needs to be salable - in their eyes. And yes, they make mistakes about that.
For nonfiction, you write a book proposal before you write the manuscript. The equivalent of a college term paper, it looks at market, promotion, competition, etc. You want your book to have a unique slant but not be so out there publishers and retailers don’t know how to market it. For a good book on book proposals, check out Elizbeth Lyon’s book,”Nonfiction Book Proposals Anybody Can Write”.
In addition to having a good idea, and writing a good proposal, you also are light years ahead in nonfiction if you have a “platform”. How many people know about you and what you do - have you published elsewhere, do you speak, teach, lead groups, have a radio show, etc.
Should you decide to do it yourself, consider doing it yourself all the way. Write the book, pay someone to edit it, pay an experienced book designer to do the layout and cover design so it doesn’t look amateurish, and then find a good printer and pay to have it printed under your own press name with your own ISBN. As hard as it is to get taken seriously if you self-publish, it is even harder if you do it through most POD companies. Then, if you want to give yourself credibility, enter national book contests (this applies to fiction, too). Becoming a finalist or winner can convince others of your book’s value.
Check out Dan Poynter’s books and websites for the way to do all that.
As for fiction - as a professional weaver who has done high quality craft shows for 15 years and had my work in fine galleries across the country and abroad - the important thing to remember about finding an agent and publisher is the same thing I learned about selling my weaving…you do the best job you can do to make sure your work is the best it can be and then the rest is a matter of personal taste. Agents and publishers like what they like. Yes, they have an awareness of the market, and yes, they have, supposedly and educated eye and ear to quality work - but the bottom line, especially for agents - they have to love it to get behind it and push it up the Sisyphus-like hill to get to selling it in B&N. This means your query letter and synopsis, in addition to the first thirty pages (and hopefully the rest of the manuscript) better be exquisitely good. As with your reader, your first paragraph, your first page better hook the agent/publisher and make them want to keep turning pages.
I’ve sent work to 10 different agents and gotten 10 different responses back - each, in effect, contradicting what the other nine said.
This is a very personal business - as is all art.
Bottom line - you do the work because you are passionate about it, you have to do it –NO MATTER WHAT. Good luck!
August 15th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Mariella:
True, but sometimes those “Now, if it were me…” can be educational for both parties.
I have one friend who writes serious fantasy, like I do, but our styles are almost opposite somehow. (The best I can describe it is she uses words more like a four-course meal and I stick to the soup, though I doubt that’ll make sense to anyone.)
The process of trying to critique each others’ work has taught us both a great deal. We can now read things and notice when it’s likely a stylistic issue that gives us pause rather than a problem, per se. Not always, of course, but often.
And what do you know—sometimes those grimaces a writer friend offers over a style issue indicate a root problem. My aforementioned friend insists I don’t use enough commas. I go after her for using too many.
So both writer and reader friends can be helpful as critics.
But don’t be afraid to ask others for information, even if they’re not interested in reading the full story. You can ask a friend who sews about fabrics to know what would suit a dress you have in mind for a character for a specific season. You can ask gardeners you know what trees and bushes would grow near a river. Farmers you know can tell you tales of chicken behavior for you to use in a chapter.
I’ve recently been asking people of different genders and ages about a basic plot idea (as summarized in a few sentences) to figure out if I’m crazy or if there would be reader interest. All of them have so far asked me to contact them when I finish it.
Keeping a record of who’s shown interest in your plot thesis might help when you get it published, if only for the demographics of who would be interested. But since I’ve not yet finished something to publish, I can’t test that idea yet.
But anyone who wants to test it is surely welcome, though I’d appreciate it if they’d let me know how it works out.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:14 am
TIP:
Write to the climax, not to the end.
Do with that what you will, but I have found it quite helpful in my own writing.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Man. I wrote my only completed book when I was sixteen. I haven’t submitted it to anyone, because, frankly, it’s not good enough. I need to go through it and do a major rewrite, but I’ve lost my motivation lately. Lately, it’s been all about money and making ends meet . . . haven’t been doing any writing for pleasure lately.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Misti –
According to the things I have read, including the foreword in the edition I have, LOTR is one novel told in six books (novels and books having different definitions). My point, however, is that it is much longer than one book or even three books typically are, so saying it took him 14 years to write it isn’t an equal comparison to saying it took a year for Lewis to write each of his Narnia books. On the other hand, saying it took Lewis about 7 years to write the Narnia Chronicles, and Tolkien 14 years to write LOTR, would be a much better comparison.
But again, my original question was about the number of hours that it takes to write a novel.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Misti and Mariella — regarding the writer/non-writer friends critiquing debate:
I think it depends on what you want to get out of the critique. If you are still polishing, and want to get someone else’s opinion on where your manuscript is at, then another writer is probably the way to go. However, if you are looking for an opinion that will represent the current market, a reader who is always up-to-date on all the newest books is probably a better choice.
Of course, this could very well be the same person, as many writers are also voracious readers.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Katrina –
I know what you mean. I actually wrote three novels when I was 14 and 15, but I don’t think they’re good enough to be submitted the way they are. Two are in various stages of salvagableness (is that a word?
), but my first one would need a complete overhaul if I ever wanted to do anything with it.
I wrote incessantly until I was 16. Then, in the middle of my fourth novel, I just suddenly stopped. It took me 6 years to get back to a point where I felt like writing fiction again.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:55 am
I found this amusing, considering the debate we’ve been having: This week’s WritersWeekly.com profiles a book called BAM: Book a Month, in which the author tells you how to turn out a “full-length commercial novel” in one month.
I bet this one will be a hit around October-November (NaNoWriMo season)!
August 15th, 2007 at 10:40 am
This has certainly spawned many mini-discussions.
Katherine:
The Tolkein/Lewis example stands on the grounds of the time needed to worldbuild enough to structure the intended story, to support my point that the length of time a novel takes to write depends on what the writer wants in it and wants it to do.
I also get what you mean about the six books as in “divisions”; I was using the term in the colloquial sense. Bad form of me to do that here, sorry.
Writer speed is also likely affected by how we come up with stories. Some start with a plot; others start with a premise. Some us come up with an intriguing character set and have to figure out a plot.
Katrina & Katherine:
I wrote my first novel from 14-17, and I use it now to encourage those writer friends of mine who are disappointed by how much they need to practice. Makes ‘em laugh and feel a bit better, and I feel better that it’s not entirely useless. Maybe you’d like to do something a bit similar for your younger writer friends.
I know for me, studying the differences between Kathy Tyers’ original and revised versions of her published novels was more helpful than I dared hope. (She writes Christian sci-fi.)
I’ll sometimes take a few months off serious fiction writing, but it’s my preferred place to linger in the writing world, and I have stories and worlds wracking up in my brain faster than I can organize and write them—thus the agitation you might’ve noticed me developing throughout this… set of mini-discussions.
Excuse me while I go pull my hair.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Misti –
Thanks for your response. While I do see your point in the time required — i.e. LOTR is considerably more complex than Narnia — I also think that it didn’t take Tolkien as long as it might seem, at least in hours spent actually writing. His many breaks speak for that, and while that does extend the overall timeline until a novel is finished, I was trying to focus on the hourly issue.
By the way, Misti, it looks like you are right. After a quick Google search, I found information stating that Tolkien spent 4 months in the trenches during WWI, but nothing about him fighting in WWII.
I hear you about first novels and the need for practice. My first full-length novel is ridiculously sentimental and (sadly) influenced rather extensively by favorite books I was reading at the time. I got away from that by the time I came up with my second novel, thank goodness.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:09 am
I just started working as a Virtual Assistant to a literary agent. She has some great advice on her site about getting a book published and she has a product and seminars to help authors write book proposals. http://www.KellerMedia.com
August 15th, 2007 at 11:43 am
I know this might seem off topic and may be one of those “stupid questions” but….
How does one go about getting a literary agent?
Do you just send out your ms to as many agents as possible and hope you get a bite?
August 15th, 2007 at 11:45 am
Wow. he hottest of the hot topics!
I only have one thing to apologize for, and that’s dissing Young Adult / Teen lit in general. I should never have used the objective word “better” when I have one very subjective beef with the genre.
My daughter (who is 11) and I read a lot of this stuff. Her faves are Diane Lee Wilson and Isabel Allende (which is funny since the only big fight I ever had with my Da was when he was working with the nephew of Augusto Pinochet, but I digress).
These books are well written - tight and compelling. But - and this is a big but - they are terribly violent. Violent for no particular reason, IMHO. I don’t know why kids should have to see all that casual violence in their formative years. Having witnessed my share firsthand, I want to at least make sure my kids get some context on the violence of the world so they can digest it properly.
That’s my one beef, and it’s put me down on the whole genre. Call me petty if ya want.
I’ve said enough on writing a novel so I’ll get off this thread. But I did summarize my take on my own blog, so I guess I was inspired, eh?
Thanks everyone, you’re all great and I wish all of you the best of luck. Maybe we can form a union some day.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:50 am
Lauren asked:
> How does one go about getting a literary agent?
You send out a Query Letter. You start with the agents listed here:
http://www.aar-online.org/mc/directory/simplesearch.do
First, you go through and pick out the ones that would be the best fit. After they all reject you, you can go on to everyone in the world. A few months later, when you’ve put in many hours, you might even pony up the $395 for that thing from Keller Media that’s a few posts up. You may even get a request for your MS here and there, which will get you excited, but then you’ll never hear from them again.
Finally, you’ll become as bitter as I am (apparently) and write nasty, cynical missives like this whilst advising people to just self-publish for their friends and ignore the whole industry.
Well, that’s how it happens at least *sometimes* …
August 15th, 2007 at 11:53 am
Erik –
I can understand your concerns. However, there are also a great many nonviolent YA books that are in fact quite good. The Giver (one of my personal favorites) comes to mind. Ann Rinaldi was one of my favorites way-back-when; she writes historical YA novels, often based on real young women in history, kind of like Scott O’Dell.
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL. But Erik, Misti, and anyone else on this forum — you are always welcome to contact me if you want to keep in touch.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:54 am
I think that you should join some writers forums and see if you can get some honest critiques by people who don’t know you. If you receive good feedback then make a list of literary agents who accept manuscripts on your topic. Send them a book proposal with the first chapter of your book. You WILL get rejected by some even if your book is great. The Chicken Soup and Harry Potter series got rejected numerous times but prevailed in the end.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:58 am
LOL, Erik — at least you have a sense of humor about it!!
I don’t know anything about getting an agent, but there are plenty of good how-to books out there. Me, personally — I am an obsessive-compulsive do-it-yourselfer.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Uh… Erik, thanks for your…er… advice?
And Bonnie, thanks. I thought that was basically how it worked. I will definitely be going to the library to check out some books on book proposals.
Thankfully I have no fear of rejection
To be rejected means that you’ve put yourself out there. Otherwise, what’s the point?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
If you post your fiction somewhere for critique, make sure there is only a limited audience. Legal reasons—I understand publishers can be sticklers for how they define “publication.”
Also, on Orson Scott Card’s forums (he’s a top fantasy and sci-fi writer), you can post the first 14 lines or something of your story and get feedback on how good it is as an opening from several people. Just follow the directions.
…I actually have a writing critique forum that’s hypersmall and doesn’t work quite how I want because the members are mostly my personal friends and peers and therefore superbusy with high school or college + work. And it looks kinda silly, since I don’t have the proper software to make graphics…
Quote from Katherine Swan:
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL.
What?! :-O Not the crazy little grammar freak who rambles and deludes herself into thinking she actually has something worth saying?!
*cough*
Self-insult should be an art.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Katherine, back on Tolkien:
But Tolkien did take a great number of hours to work on LotR in those 14 years, because it was a running complaint that he worked too much on his hobby rather than his work for the college.
Just a leeetle pertinent side note.
Back on the friends as critics discussion:
EVERYTHING depends on what you want to get out of that thing, so isn’t that a given?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Misti –
All I know is that he speaks of many breaks in his own Foreword to the Second Edition. In fact, he describes one of the breaks as “almost a year” long. I think that is pertinent too.
But, Misti, what’s up with this?
[Quoted from Misti]
Quote from Katherine Swan:
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL.
What?! :-O Not the crazy little grammar freak who rambles and deludes herself into thinking she actually has something worth saying?!
That sounds kind of like you’re insulting me. Did I interpret that wrong?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:53 pm
I think using friends as critics is a slippery slope.
I might bounce ideas off my friends to see