I received several emails from writers who are interesting in having novels or books published. Half of them have no clue what to do first. I’m really not qualified to answer as I’ve never gone that route. I know many of you have published work or have attempted to have your manusrcripts published. Perhaps you can help?
My readers are interested in learning about the process. Specifically:
- How many times did you submit your manuscript before someone showed interest?
- Did you have help writing your book proposal?
- What are the steps necessary to take before submitting your book to a publishing house?
- Do you need a publicist or agent?
- What are your experiences with the process?
- What is the first thing you do?
Thanks so much!
Deb
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Misti and Mariella — regarding the writer/non-writer friends critiquing debate:
I think it depends on what you want to get out of the critique. If you are still polishing, and want to get someone else’s opinion on where your manuscript is at, then another writer is probably the way to go. However, if you are looking for an opinion that will represent the current market, a reader who is always up-to-date on all the newest books is probably a better choice.
Of course, this could very well be the same person, as many writers are also voracious readers.
Katrina –
I know what you mean. I actually wrote three novels when I was 14 and 15, but I don’t think they’re good enough to be submitted the way they are. Two are in various stages of salvagableness (is that a word?
), but my first one would need a complete overhaul if I ever wanted to do anything with it.
I wrote incessantly until I was 16. Then, in the middle of my fourth novel, I just suddenly stopped. It took me 6 years to get back to a point where I felt like writing fiction again.
I found this amusing, considering the debate we’ve been having: This week’s WritersWeekly.com profiles a book called BAM: Book a Month, in which the author tells you how to turn out a “full-length commercial novel” in one month.
I bet this one will be a hit around October-November (NaNoWriMo season)!
This has certainly spawned many mini-discussions.
Katherine:
The Tolkein/Lewis example stands on the grounds of the time needed to worldbuild enough to structure the intended story, to support my point that the length of time a novel takes to write depends on what the writer wants in it and wants it to do.
I also get what you mean about the six books as in “divisions”; I was using the term in the colloquial sense. Bad form of me to do that here, sorry.
Writer speed is also likely affected by how we come up with stories. Some start with a plot; others start with a premise. Some us come up with an intriguing character set and have to figure out a plot.
Katrina & Katherine:
I wrote my first novel from 14-17, and I use it now to encourage those writer friends of mine who are disappointed by how much they need to practice. Makes ‘em laugh and feel a bit better, and I feel better that it’s not entirely useless. Maybe you’d like to do something a bit similar for your younger writer friends.
I know for me, studying the differences between Kathy Tyers’ original and revised versions of her published novels was more helpful than I dared hope. (She writes Christian sci-fi.)
I’ll sometimes take a few months off serious fiction writing, but it’s my preferred place to linger in the writing world, and I have stories and worlds wracking up in my brain faster than I can organize and write them—thus the agitation you might’ve noticed me developing throughout this… set of mini-discussions.
Excuse me while I go pull my hair.
Misti –
Thanks for your response. While I do see your point in the time required — i.e. LOTR is considerably more complex than Narnia — I also think that it didn’t take Tolkien as long as it might seem, at least in hours spent actually writing. His many breaks speak for that, and while that does extend the overall timeline until a novel is finished, I was trying to focus on the hourly issue.
By the way, Misti, it looks like you are right. After a quick Google search, I found information stating that Tolkien spent 4 months in the trenches during WWI, but nothing about him fighting in WWII.
I hear you about first novels and the need for practice. My first full-length novel is ridiculously sentimental and (sadly) influenced rather extensively by favorite books I was reading at the time. I got away from that by the time I came up with my second novel, thank goodness.
I just started working as a Virtual Assistant to a literary agent. She has some great advice on her site about getting a book published and she has a product and seminars to help authors write book proposals. http://www.KellerMedia.com
I know this might seem off topic and may be one of those “stupid questions” but….
How does one go about getting a literary agent?
Do you just send out your ms to as many agents as possible and hope you get a bite?
Wow. he hottest of the hot topics!
I only have one thing to apologize for, and that’s dissing Young Adult / Teen lit in general. I should never have used the objective word “better” when I have one very subjective beef with the genre.
My daughter (who is 11) and I read a lot of this stuff. Her faves are Diane Lee Wilson and Isabel Allende (which is funny since the only big fight I ever had with my Da was when he was working with the nephew of Augusto Pinochet, but I digress).
These books are well written – tight and compelling. But – and this is a big but – they are terribly violent. Violent for no particular reason, IMHO. I don’t know why kids should have to see all that casual violence in their formative years. Having witnessed my share firsthand, I want to at least make sure my kids get some context on the violence of the world so they can digest it properly.
That’s my one beef, and it’s put me down on the whole genre. Call me petty if ya want.
I’ve said enough on writing a novel so I’ll get off this thread. But I did summarize my take on my own blog, so I guess I was inspired, eh?
Thanks everyone, you’re all great and I wish all of you the best of luck. Maybe we can form a union some day.
Lauren asked:
> How does one go about getting a literary agent?
You send out a Query Letter. You start with the agents listed here:
http://www.aar-online.org/mc/directory/simplesearch.do
First, you go through and pick out the ones that would be the best fit. After they all reject you, you can go on to everyone in the world. A few months later, when you’ve put in many hours, you might even pony up the $395 for that thing from Keller Media that’s a few posts up. You may even get a request for your MS here and there, which will get you excited, but then you’ll never hear from them again.
Finally, you’ll become as bitter as I am (apparently) and write nasty, cynical missives like this whilst advising people to just self-publish for their friends and ignore the whole industry.
Well, that’s how it happens at least *sometimes* …
Erik –
I can understand your concerns. However, there are also a great many nonviolent YA books that are in fact quite good. The Giver (one of my personal favorites) comes to mind. Ann Rinaldi was one of my favorites way-back-when; she writes historical YA novels, often based on real young women in history, kind of like Scott O’Dell.
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL. But Erik, Misti, and anyone else on this forum — you are always welcome to contact me if you want to keep in touch.
I think that you should join some writers forums and see if you can get some honest critiques by people who don’t know you. If you receive good feedback then make a list of literary agents who accept manuscripts on your topic. Send them a book proposal with the first chapter of your book. You WILL get rejected by some even if your book is great. The Chicken Soup and Harry Potter series got rejected numerous times but prevailed in the end.
LOL, Erik — at least you have a sense of humor about it!!
I don’t know anything about getting an agent, but there are plenty of good how-to books out there. Me, personally — I am an obsessive-compulsive do-it-yourselfer.
Uh… Erik, thanks for your…er… advice?
And Bonnie, thanks. I thought that was basically how it worked. I will definitely be going to the library to check out some books on book proposals.
Thankfully I have no fear of rejection
To be rejected means that you’ve put yourself out there. Otherwise, what’s the point?
If you post your fiction somewhere for critique, make sure there is only a limited audience. Legal reasons—I understand publishers can be sticklers for how they define “publication.”
Also, on Orson Scott Card’s forums (he’s a top fantasy and sci-fi writer), you can post the first 14 lines or something of your story and get feedback on how good it is as an opening from several people. Just follow the directions.
…I actually have a writing critique forum that’s hypersmall and doesn’t work quite how I want because the members are mostly my personal friends and peers and therefore superbusy with high school or college + work. And it looks kinda silly, since I don’t have the proper software to make graphics…
Quote from Katherine Swan:
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL.
What?! :-O Not the crazy little grammar freak who rambles and deludes herself into thinking she actually has something worth saying?!
*cough*
Self-insult should be an art.
Katherine, back on Tolkien:
But Tolkien did take a great number of hours to work on LotR in those 14 years, because it was a running complaint that he worked too much on his hobby rather than his work for the college.
Just a leeetle pertinent side note.
Back on the friends as critics discussion:
EVERYTHING depends on what you want to get out of that thing, so isn’t that a given?
Misti –
All I know is that he speaks of many breaks in his own Foreword to the Second Edition. In fact, he describes one of the breaks as “almost a year” long. I think that is pertinent too.
But, Misti, what’s up with this?
[Quoted from Misti]
Quote from Katherine Swan:
You really don’t have to leave, Erik! If there’s anyone who should, it’s me — LOL.
What?! :-O Not the crazy little grammar freak who rambles and deludes herself into thinking she actually has something worth saying?!
That sounds kind of like you’re insulting me. Did I interpret that wrong?
I think using friends as critics is a slippery slope.
I might bounce ideas off my friends to see if they think certain situations are funny/interesting/whatever or for feedback on characters. However, I think most friends might say they love your book simply because they love you. They know how passionate you are about it and how much you put into it.
I do have one particular friend that I know will give it to me straight and gives great writing advice.
It’s a judgement call, really.
Lauren –
You have a good point, but I think it depends on the friend. Some friends will be more honest with you because of the relationship. For instance, Stephen King gives his wife a lot of credit in On Writing. She apparently is instrumental in his polishing process.
I have written a book and am in the process of getting it published. I’ve done a ton of research and I probably know way more than is necessary.
I can’t say I’m an expert or anything but if anyone wants to follow the process from writing to being published, you can visit my blog at http://karenlalaniz.blogspot.com .
Some may say I’m unrealistic, that my book, my manuscript will never make it past the person who opens the mail. But I believe in putting “feet” to your dreams. I believe in becoming a student of what you hope to accomplish. My dream is to be published so I am learning all I can about the process.
Feel free to visit my blog. I try to post every day. Ask questions if you like. I’ll do my best to answer them. Lets encourage each other to be the best writers we can be!
-Karen
All I can picture, Katherine, is that scene in Funny Farm where Chevy Chase forces his wife to read his ms and she hates it! Ha ha ha.
I think that anyone you can trust to give you honest feedback would be helpful, although I could never trust my husband’s input- he actually enjoys my singing, so I know for sure that he cannot be impartial!
Katherine Swan:
NO, NO, NO!!! I was not insulting you! I was insulting myself since I’m a petite grammar-obsessive 20-year-old chick! That’s why I referred to self-insult in the next line!
I’m terribly sorry for that misimpression. :’(
Thanks for the clarification, Misti. I misunderstood since you went right into it from my quote… No harm done, though. I’m just glad I asked rather than going apesh!t over it.
* How many times did you submit your manuscript before someone showed interest? I submitted a query or proposal if it was requested. I would say for every 20 queries I got 1 bite.
* Did you have help writing your book proposal? I looked at a book to get the format down.
* What are the steps necessary to take before submitting your book to a publishing house? Look at a book and do research:)
* Do you need a publicist or agent? Yes, I am shopping for one now and many want to pick up the book, which was originally self-published.
* What are your experiences with the process? It’s hard but it’s worth it. My 2nd book got picked up by a publisher and I know I will write more books!
* What is the first thing you do? To get started? Um…write!
MY BOOK:
http://www.creativelyselfemployed.com
Hmmmm. I submitted my novel “The Mango Tree Cafe, Loi Kroh Road” to a bazillion agents and publishers and while I had alot of agents reading it and loved it, they felt that because of it taking place in Thailand, it wouldn’t sell easily.
So after hitting my head against the wall, I self-published and people are buying it up left and right. I say WRITE YOUR NOVEL because you love to write. Self-publish it and reap your profits. Don’t worry about being a Hemingway, be YOU.
And just for the nah nah nah Factor toward the publishing houses and agents: My book is being considered for BEST FICTION by USABooknews.com and competing for THE PULITZER FOR BEST FICTION and is being shown at the Intl Book Fair in Beijing, China at the end of Aug.
Just to give you a chuckle, I contacted my local paper to do a story on the book and they said, “(sniff) We don’t do stories on Self-Published books”.
Even if it wins a Pulitzer. Go figure.
Wow, Taryn! That’s great! Do you have any tips for self-publishing successfully? If so, I’d love to hear them, since I’m strongly considering going that route myself.
Taryn, and everyone:
That’s just great news, and congrats!
I keep thinking about putting together the lists of things you really have to do in order to self-publish – and have it available for free.
I made a few mistakes along the way because I don’t do “how-to” books and courses – I just teach my little self how to do stuff. So naturally I made a few mistakes along the way.
For example, it appears that publishing with lulu has the least stigma associated with it. Can everyone else confirm that?
Also, a number of reviewers only do “pre-publication” books, a few more only “new” books, and so on. I’m working on Midwest Review now, as they are the only big one that is neither (and is open to the world). But a list of due dates and costs for important reviewers would be a big help.
If nothing else, I should make an effort to be positive and upbeat. Self publishing is great! All my best wishes! Hasta la victoria siempre! (wait, that one can be taken wrong …)
Yes, Erik, you should definitely make a “To Do” list for self-published authors! Since it sounds like you developed quite a loyal local following, you no doubt have some really good tips to share (and, it sounds like, warnings of what NOT to do).
I’m definitely interested in hearing whatever suggestions you have.
See, Katharine, if I can fool you I can fool *anyone*!
There are several things that I can only give general info on. For example, there are some coffee shops in Saint Paul that are full of people who are writers or are into books generally. I hit those up hard for signings, and they often agree without a big deal.
I have a few coffee shops selling my book all the time, and I kind of rotate them. It’s not easy to get them into it, but worth it.
I’m very, very vocal in local politics, so people knew my name ahead of time. That, combined with a willingness to talk to everyone about anything (and, eventually, your book) are the key to me. If only 1/100 people give a damn, talking to about 10,000 is 100 potential customers. (In this town, 10,000 people is easy somehow).
The things I did wrong – and couldn’t recover from – are not getting in with the writer’s groups ahead of time, not getting my PR schedule lined up (I didn’t know I had to schedule) and perhaps not using lulu.
Oh, don’t forget editing. I had mine edited by two teens after the semi-pro edit which was after my 3 big edits (each less productive than the last). Each chapter was heavily worked up on its own, too. I honestly feel that sending it to someone for a (free) edit is always worth it, as long as you are willing to potentially ignore everything they say if you don’t like it. That may sound weird, but you can judge for yourself if it’s a “too many cooks” problem or really good advice, but you can only tell after you get the advice.
There’s a ton of little stuff, too. I had some color cards printed at kinkos to advertise appearances that were handy, but that’s all the promo junk I ever went in for, aside from authorsden.com. Maybe someone else found something was really great. I had minimal write-up in the local papers, but that’s the case with all self-published books – they won’t read ‘em. (The one I got cost me lunch, as it was friend of friend).
Oh, yes, make a list of all your friends, sort-of friends, and people who were friends until you ticked ‘em off. They need to know you wrote a book. Hit them up for little reviews on authorsden and/or amazon. Everyone you knew from your first grade teacher on, especially that High School English teacher that gave you a “C” and was sure you’d never amount to much. They can be pressed into service.
Last bit of advice: Having written a book is a major chick magnet, but I think it’s a guy turn-off. Perhaps it only works with the right guys, which would be handy. But some of the best promoters for me were dates. Go figger.
Naturally, other people have their own recommendations. I’d like to hear those, and perhaps we can assemble a very small (no more than about 8 pages) guide to doing this.
BTW, to be completely fair, I think that my rate of pay for all of this is up to about $2 an hour. You still don’t do this for pay, but it is handy to show people that I can write because I have a book – it’s my Master’s Thesis, so to speak. Never expect to get rich, but you can break even and use the time commitment to advance your writing career generally. Regular publishers can’t make that claim.
One more thing that I can’t believe I forgot:
Cover art.
I got my cover art by shopping around for artists and not finding one who would do just what I wanted for relatively low money. Finally, I asked a bartender if he knew any artists, and without a pause told me, “Yeah, at Visual Addiction” (a tattoo parlor). I went there, and they hooked me up with Peter Hanson, who did it for $200. I have the original framed above my desk (which is why I can’t believe I forgot to mention it!)
Shop around for a good artist who will do what you want. A tattoo parlor worked for me. Good art is worth a lot, but if you don’t have the scratch to splurge bigtime you can find someone.
Cover art from a tattoo parlor. That’s hilarious, Erik!
I think your suggestions are great, by the way. I’m particularly interested in how your arrangements with the coffee shops work. The difficulty getting a self-published book into the bookstores is, of course, the most challenging obstacle to overcome.
You know, I have a lot of work to do, which is why I screw around on the computer rather than outside or at a bar. Does that make sense? Anyhoo, I’m back here again, which is to say waaay too much.
I’m glad you like my suggestions, but there has to be another side to this. I feel like Charles Bukowski around here, for some reason. “Some people never go crazy – what terrible lives they must lead.” I guess I’m just here for balance. Hopefully other POD People (Print On Demand) will chime in.
I got coffee shops to carry my book by first drinking far too much coffee. Not only do you get to know the owner that way, you also lose some inhibitions. The aura of “artsy” is a good look for coffee shops, so they often go along.
I got a small paper sorting thing from OfficeSmacks and taped a small box with a slot on it. I sold them for $10 even to make it simple. All I was asking from java the hutt was about a half a square foot of counter space. I checked it twice a week, and kept it neat and clean (and the cashbox empty, very important). Over the last 18 months I’ve sold about 250 books in about 5 locations that way – not a ton, but not bad.
Bookstores are very unlikely. I sold about 40 in one that was willing to take me for a while, but everyone else was not going to do it. It’s not worth your time unless it’s independent. I’d suggest getting known there, too.
Basically, you’re more than just the primary means of production – you’re also distribution and marketing, too. It’s everything that you have to prove to an agent or publisher anyways, except once you have these skills you realize that there’s little need for an agent or a publisher. Life’s funny that way.
Dao ke dao, fei chang dao. (The way that is known is not the true way.) Once you handle that, and realize you’re on your own no matter what, I highly recommend just doing whatever you can and being resourceful. Why the Hell not?
I have yet to actually sit down and write for a book. I have written small little chapters. Nothing big. An outline has started in my mind, but mostly I’ll just add a chapter here and there about something. It’s random. Thank you Erik for the information on a query letter for getting an agent.
Micah:
Keep yourself fed and warm, and the other stuff like books will come naturally.
I’d like to tell more bits and pieces about what I think can be done to sell books, but in all honesty I don’t want to be seen as an “expert”. There have to be other opinions, especially from people not as stubborn as I am who actually read what other people do first.
I’d like to have about 8 people who sold their own self published books get together to write a guide. I’m willing to be one of them, but I’m a bit more gonzo than average. There has to be a way we can share what we have learned and get this option become more viable. The goal is independence from publishers, agents, and all that nonsense. Think of it as Emancipation.
Lift every voice and sing, till earth and Heaven ring,
Ring with the harmonies of liberty;
Let our rejoicing rise, high as the listening skies,
Let it resound loud as the rolling sea.
Sing a song full of the faith that the dark past has taught us,
Sing a song full of the hope that the present has brought us;
Facing the rising sun of our new day begun,
Let us march on till victory is won.
I watched “Miss Potter” last week. Her parent’s took care of her for most of her life. She has a dream for her work to get published and managed to achieve that through her own perservence. Can you imagine not having her books available? She ended up being able to buy her own farmhouse and helping other farms with her money. I’m not rich, never been, not even close. I just want to make a living and provide. I think her life story is a good one when looking for inspiration.