Should You Include a Rate Quote with Your Cover Letter?
February 3, 2008 by Deb
Filed under Freelance Writing
Yesterday when suggesting folks follow directions when responding to an ad, I mentioned how that included quoting a rate if it’s requested. It appears I’m in the minority however. Many writers here feel they’ll be doing themselves a great disservice by including rates, even if rates are specifically requested. It’s an interesting discussion. Without knowing the client’s budget and the work involved can you accurately quote a rate? My feeling is that if you have a standard rate, it shouldn’t make be a difference. Though we don’t mind negotiating, many freelancers have a set per page, per word or per project fee and don’t raise and lower rates for each different gig.
It was suggested that you may be low balling yourself if you don’t know what the client is willing to pay. I feel if you have a standard rate, you’re not low balling yourself at all. You’re sticking with a price you already figured out as being reasonable for you. Are you going to lower that for everyone who asks? If so, why bother setting a rate at all?
Why You Should Include a Quote
Like I mentioned yesterday, clients ask for quotes for a reason. Knowing as much information as possible helps narrow down candidates. Perhaps the client doesn’t know the going rate or how much to charge, by reading a variety of quotes he can gauge the average. Moreover, he wastes less time by only looking through the resumes of those he can afford.
You might also consider that if rates were requested and you didn’t include that information, your client will see you as someone who can’t follow directions and bin your details.
When You Shouldn’t Include a Quote
Sometimes an ad is so vague you have no idea what the gig is about. You might quote your standard rate of $50 per page and learn later the research and writing involved is worth way more than your quote. If this is the case you can quote a range "My fee is $50 to $100 per page depending on the work involved". That shows this potential client it depends on the work, but it also gives him an idea of what you would like to be paid.
If the ad is vague, you can also request more information. "I’d love to offer a quote, but your ad didn’t indicate what kind of work is involved, or what you would like me to write about. May I have more details so I can offer a more accurate quote?" This shows the client you know how to follow directions and you’re happy to offer a quote with more details.
Who Should Set the Rates, the Client or the Freelancer?
From what I gather from the comments, the majority of the writers who responded prefer the client set the rates. This can be a dangerous practice.While it’s great to know a client’s budget, when we let clients dictate the rates we’re setting ourselves up for a low paying situation.
We complain all the time about low payers. This is what happens when clients dictate the rates instead of freelancers. If you want to be paid what you’re worth, it’s up to you to set the standard. Your client isn’t the one doing the work.
Please support FWJ
@ Scribette – Sure. Send ‘em over
@ Trisha – That’s perfect. If it were me, I’d add this between your two sentences: My standard rates for general topics that require less than X amount of research are $Y.
It gives the buyer an idea of whether you’re in or out of range right from the start. Obviously, you’ve crafted a good proposal, so they can surely see that you’d do a nice job. They’d be more likely to come back to you and say, “Well, my topic is on refractory light. How much would you charge for that?” Tried and true. Works for me.
@ Scribette & Phil–right on. I’m with y’all on this one.
James. Whoa! I didn’t expect a positive response. It seems like everyone is so tense about this subject and veiled insults are flying. But, if you aren’t being sarcastic, thank you very much. I respect your opinion. Your blog has been on my feed reader for some time. And I will take your suggestion, too.
I’ve been kind of surprised about the responses from everyone here. I expected people to be helpful and nice and respect differences, and it kind of hasn’t been that way. Or maybe I’m just seeing things.
@ Trisha – Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re seeing things. I love this blog, I love coming here to read and comment, and inevitably, people argue, take high roads, go to extremes and hurl pretty-worded insults at each other. The magazine writers get lofty, the web content writers mutter, and there’s general tension with a lack of community. It seems to be every man for himself. Or woman.
(Sorry, Deb.)
I usually think twice about commenting and generally always regret my decision of speaking up.
However, not speaking up would be worse, I think.
What definitely gets my goat (and my French passion boiling) are the implied insults, the snotty tones and the unspoken nastiness. I can’t say I’m better than anyone, because I get snappy myself and tend to get involved in it (blame that French temper).
Honestly, though, it doesn’t have to be this way, and I think we should all be a community that helps each other instead of one that hurts each other’s feelings. There’s a wealth of information to share, and nothing should be personal. I have trouble understanding why conversations over at my blog go so well and here they just seem to fall to shit each time.
So, to answer your question, I really was genuine. I think you have the right attitude and the right words. I just wanted to show you how I think you could maybe make it a little easier to get jobs. But as has been pointed out, that’s only my opinion. It’s worked very well in my favor over my years of freelancing, though.
And even though we may disagree with each other (general we), there’s no reason we can’t say, “Hm. I don’t do that, I don’t think it’ll work, but I could give it a whirl and let you know how it goes.” No?
(Thanks for reading my blog, too – that means a lot to me!)
@James–I disagree with the idea that a client will pick up on subtle implications. If you say “I generally work at $X an hour” and then later (after learning more about the job) you tell them it’s going to cost twice that, they won’t be happy. “But you said you could do it at $X!” “Generally” is still too specific.
Maybe you could say “I generally work at $X to $Y an hour depending on the amount of work involved and the subject matter” but you STILL run the risk of your high-end quote being less than you could have gotten.
Besides, there are so many factors in play besides the subject matter and the complexity of the work. I’ve happily taken jobs that pay on the low end of the spectrum because I knew the newspaper’s reputation was stellar. I’ve asked for more money when I knew I wouldn’t get a byline. Heck, I’ve asked for more money when the client was hard to work with. You don’t know any of that when blindly responding to an ad.
Trisha – hope that you are getting some good advice!
I did take a look at your website – the design is very cute!
However – I noticed some grammatical “issues”. For instance, you say “I have attended Minnesota School …”
This type of sentence utilizes the “passive voice” – you may want to change it to “I attended Minnesota School …” – an “active voice”.
Perhaps the grammar may be holding you back somewhat (and not the actual following of “ad directions”)? An editor can help you out …
[I do edit by the way - what's your budget? (sorry! a joke ... couldn't resist)]
However, seriously – an editor can help you out.
Hm. I had a very long reply written that somehow isn’t posting. Nutshell version:
Yes, I think this blog has a hostile community. I love the blog, posts, and Deb, but I hesitate to comment. It brings out the worst in me, because it’s like walking through a field full of snipers. The reactions range from lofty know-it-all to subtle insult to just plain rude and mean. I wish we could be a better community, and I’m sorry that I do get involved and get snappy with my own comments. I’m working on it.
@ Trish – I was sincere. I really do want to help and show people other ways of working that may be better. They may not, too. But the point is, why not have everyone be more open and sharing and helpful instead of selfish and condescending? All ideas are worth a try – we’re all out for the same goal, aren’t we?
Or are we all fighting with each other?
I honestly don’t understand why the community here is so snippy. It isn’t at my blog and we have good discussion that focus on helping one another, not bashing. I’m glad to know that you do read, Trisha, and I hope it helps.
@ Scribette – Sometimes, things are better said in personal emails and not in public. Just a thought before pointing out someone else’s potential problem areas.
@ Rachel – There are many things that you won’t know until you’re halfway through the job and then some. The point is to find the most optimal way to secure work, no?
James – you make a good point. Sorry Trish – thought I was helping, but I should have emailed. I apologize for that. I guess I did get ‘blog happy’ and pressed ’send’ before thinking this one out.
I really love the design of the site though Trish – I’m jealous!
Geez, Scribette. That was kind of rude. I’m glad that you think my website is cute, but dang. And I never said that I have a problem getting clients. I don’t.
And anyway, I’m working on a newer and better website. Maybe I’ll update you all when I’m done.
I accept your apology, Scrib. (I can call you by a nickname now. We’ve been through a lot.
)
You can get an idea of my new site at http://www.trishabartle.com/temp.
I had a potential client look at my website (the current one) recently and they said that they were afraid I had too much skill. So, maybe it isn’t so bad, even though I used passive voice.
Trish – I did apologize.
Good luck with the new site!
Scribette,
Your comment was extremely rude and condescending. Shame on you.
Booboo – I am sorry that you feel that way. My sincere apologies once again.
Scribette has been condescending to everyone from the start of these comments (even before her obnoxious post to Trisha). Every one of her comments has the overriding theme of how she has so many clients and how great she is. Deb tries to promote a helpful community among the writers here. I’m sure she doesn’t appreciate Scribette’s comments taking down to everyone.
Kori – I respectfully disagree! I believe someone mentioned that he or she would not want to hire someone if the applicant could not follow directions (giving pay rates).
I stated truthfully that I do not give rates (when employers ask for them) – and yet I get hired.
A few other writers mentioned similar situations.
It was not my intention to come across as “bragging” – I was making a point.
(this is a discussion if I am correct?)
I did apologize to Trish – I should have emailed her personally as mentioned. I do regret that.
@ Trish – Passive language isn’t wrong. It’s perfectly fine grammar and language…it’s just generally viewed as weaker language these days. And often, the best writers use a ton of passive language
We have to retrain them not to!
James – I’m cringing … I’m sorry! I may get “blog crucified” for this statement. However, I don’t think it is too helpful to tell someone that passive language is perfectly fine grammar and language.
Trish – please don’t “hate” me again!!
Your pal,
Scrib
@ Scribette – A current trend does not mean that something is not well written. Grammar is what grammar is – English-language writing is a written skill. The trend is to drop all commas – does that mean writing using commas (even the dreaded serial comma!) is bad? Not at all. It’s perfectly fine.
Saying that action language is preferred is one thing, but I don’t want anyone to have the impression that passive language = poor writing. There’s a world of difference between the two. Trust me; I’ve seen some rockin’ passive language and some pretty crap action writing.
The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is the difference between trend and technique. Passive language isn’t trendy, but it’s not bad writing.
As far as I know, it is not a “trend” though. Unless your definition of “trend” is completely different than mine. (My high school English teacher covered this topic years ago). Also, it honestly sounds awkward.
@ Scrib – Two years ago, the University of Waterloo’s Academic Writing course (flying colors, just in case you think I might have failed) taught me that there isn’t anything grammatically incorrect with passive language. The Little, Brown Compact Handbook that we had to practically memorize also states there isn’t anything wrong with passive language. It is *an acceptable and perfectly fine form of writing*.
However. The University and the Handbook and James Chartrand believe active voice to be stronger and more widely preferred – especially for Web 2.0 writing, in which we specialize. Yes, it’s stronger, sounds better and is more compelling.
But I’ll stress again what I was saying, and you can take this to your high school teacher, that there isn’t anything grammatically incorrect with passive language. Passive language also has its place and purpose.
Now sheesh, would you please start treating me like I know what I’m talking about?
I think I need more beer tonight. Last night wasn’t enough.
I think it is more helpful to tell someone something does not sound right. More than likely, people in hiring positions believe the same thing.
As an analogy – maybe not a good one – I would prefer it if someone told me that I had a big chunk of spinach on my teeth – rather than walk around with it all day.
Ok … I’m waiting for it! I am a horrible horrible person for saying such things …
LOL … gotta go!
Sorry guys! It just sounded really awkward … handbook or not.
Indeed, and if someone screamed it out in public in the middle of the cafeteria, I’m sure you wouldn’t feel so gracious about their helpfulness
Nothing ‘mean spirited’ intended!
I’m a tough cookie! I can take it!
(Trish – puh-lease don’t hate me yet again!! Hurting someone is not my intent … and hopefully we are through with this topic)
Scrib
Let me say upfront that I’m not picking sides here, just making an interesting observation. And I am a real writing newbie – I have *absolutely no idea* what would be better. To quote or not to quote? That is the question! Whatever I see on the ad, I try to do. I just try to submit to enough that someone will get back to me, and I’ll go from there.
It seems strange that with the ability to carefully express one’s thoughts in whatever words one chooses (or not comment at all), there would still be comments that sound *reactive* – like you are talking right in front of someone and wish you could suck the words back in. How often would we all wish we could have the ability to edit ourselves in regular conversation (like we can here)?
Again, not taking a side or anything. I’m a counselor by trade, it’s my job to stand back sometimes and make oddball observations like that. Spirited conversations are great – I’m kind of sorry I didn’t catch this one until it was way past done. Maybe we could all make sure we do a quick re-read before we hit “submit comment” to be sure we remain the supportive community everyone likes.
Right now, I’m even contemplating whether to send or not.
Just a thought…
“It was not my intention to come across as “bragging” – I was making a point.”
– You made your point over and over in obnoxious fashion while insulting and talking down to people along the way. I’m sure you are a nice person, but you didn’t operate with much compassion or tact here. Constructive criticism is good among writers. Treating everyone like they are beneath you isn’t.
Deb is a very nice person and has worked hard to create a supportive community. A young writer that I know already told me today that she was “afraid” to post in this thread with a question because she didn’t want to get attacked or ridiculed. That’s pretty sad.
Erika,
I’m glad you decided to post. I think some people needed the reminder. There really is no excuse for 2-3 people putting up 20+ comments apiece. Especially the one-liners.
James,
I agreed with you on an earlier point, but now I’m going to disagree. In my experience, this community is quite good. Many of the regular comment posters have important advice to contribute, and are quite classy and respectful in the way that they do it. (Like yourself, in fact. I think you’ve done an exemplary job keeping your cool for most of this discussion here.) But there are a lot of people reading this blog, and new discussants are entering all the time. Perhaps sometimes they get a little too enthusiastic?
P.S. How about them Giants?
BTW – I just recalled something that happened to me on one of those bidding sites. This does pertain – hear me out.
Someone had this laundry list of ebooks they wanted with at least 40 pages for most of them. The budget was way way off, too low for anyone with a bit of professionalism to even try for. I wanted to bid, but I held back because the amount was so ridiculous, even for a beginner.
Slowly, a few bids came trickling in. They were at least 3-4 times the amount of the original bid!! These were writers who were quietly making a statement about how much their time was worth. Some people were keeping within the budget, but stating that they were just bidding for *one* of the six ebooks.
Either this contractor with the budget made an error on the listing, or he had no clue how much the writing was worth in the first place. Or he was really hoping for a miracle, I don’t know.
And the most interesting part – just after the bidding closed he put the project up again!! Except this time, he only put up half the project. The top end of his budget is still kind of low for the amount of work, but it’s better. That’s for writers standing up for their rates!
Let’s hear it for underdogs
Erika – Thanks for the observation! I love spirited conversations myself … but unfortunately it looks like they are open to misinterpretation.
To address your question, there is no right or wrong with respect to providing a quote. I ask for a budget as it a good negotiation tool. However, since you are a newbie to writing, it is probably a good idea to give rates – when asked – in order to maximize your chances of getting hired. (I think James made this point earlier)
Of course, other people may have different opinions!
This is to anyone, not just in response to you, Scribette.
With nothing but the written word, most everything is left open to misinterpretation. Most of communication is about the non-verbals. That’s why people break up over the phone. That’s why people can think they have found the love of their life in a chat room but they’ve never met in person. The distance allows us to “fill in the blanks” of communication ourselves, for right or for wrong.
I think that is why in a responsive format like this popular blog, everyone must be that much more observant about how they communicate. We only have few tools to help us out – a couple of emoticons, some asterisks for emphasis, ALL CAPS, and that’s about it.
The swath of the sharp word is much more unpredictable in cyberspace. Even if someone can get away with being pretty snappy and outspoken in person, they had better be aware of themselves online. As writers, our most important job is to always consider the reader. I think that priority rings true here in this blog.
Erika – I didn’t think you were just addressing me … but that’s fine!
It does make it somewhat difficult to debate though if we were concerned entirely what the reader may think though.
This blog “reply’ format is not like an article, for instance, where we are trying to convey a particular message to an audience.
Communication is about figuring out what you really want the other person to come away with after hearing you speak/seeing your type. You (general you) have to be considerate enough of the reader to not have them get hung up on your word choice or tone and they completely miss the message.
No matter what you say or write, if you (general) don’t consider the reader, what’s the point? A respectful debate can be tricky to pull off even with all the vocal inflections, the facial expressions, hand gestures, etc.
A writing debater has to be that much more articulate and aware of possibly stepping on others if they expect to convey their message effectively. Does the person want to share their opinion into the friendly mix, or win the battle?
And by stepping on others, I don’t mean that they are in disagreement. I mean the way the messages are said that could be construed as disrespectful or invasive or brash. When the writer is not considerate of their tone as read by others, it’s the tone that is remembered and not the message.
Again, Scribette, this is not just to you. You just happen to be replying to me back and forth!! As a counselor, I see *so much* evidence of inconsiderate selfish communication methods. People just spouting out things without a thought to how those around perceive them. If they have an opinion, they have the right to just say it outloud, no matter the damage or boundaries crossed.
If everyone is so careful when they write for money, why can’t we be careful and considerate here??
If you dare to be a fairly snarky in your post, you can’t…be…surprised….if people seem taken aback.
Erika – I gotcha and I am once again not assuming it is addressed to me alone.
True we should not be outwardly mean to each other … but everyone has a right to an opinion. (as long as it is not racist etc)
Thinking “too much” about what one is going to say is slightly stifling … and not good for a writer in my opinion.
I am not going to agree with everyone here … just for the sake of a “supportive” environment. And I don’t expect everyone to agree with me either.
Everyone has different way of doing things – and there sometimes is no “right” method … as I have mentioned in this thread before. (Yikes!)
I respectfully disagree. If one is to comment (or communicate), one must be understood. What’s the point of communicating if one doesn’t communicate effectively? In my opinion, we’re all communicators here – we communicate through our works. If we can’t figure out how to makes our exact thoughts known, then we aren’t very good at our jobs.
The linguist side of me wants to give a reminder that writing is more than the simple conventions that we all mastered in grade school. We SHOULD be at the level where we can communicate thoughts and tones effectively. If a simple statement of opinion is too difficult for us, we should practice our art more.
@ Erika – Yes to everything you said. Thank you. Thank you for saying it. I am often ashamed that I end up reacting to comments in this forum – and it’s the only forum on the internet that does this to me. It’s a shame. Two things about me don’t help: I’m French-Canadian (that’s two, trust me.) As a Canadian, we’re used to very polite, calm debate. The debate that goes on in here is akin to an Amazonian war, and it’s always gotten my back up rather quickly. As a French person from Quebec, my culture tends to be one that has heated knee-jerk reactions to perceived threat. And I sure as hell feel threatened each time I post in here.
@ Saad – Man, you have *no* idea how much it’s taken me to hold back and try to be diplomatic. I had to walk away from the computer a few times. I personally don’t think I did a very good job of keeping my cool, so I appreciate that you noticed I was making an effort.
I’m sad to see that, asides my own comments, there have been two others in here (that I noticed) that mentioned people are afraid to comment on this blog. I’m even sadder to say that I don’t blame them. I’m a seasoned problogger and hell, I think twice before commenting.
Does anyone else think that the comments about how mean other commenters are being are more hurtful than the comments from people who respectfully disagree with the majority, yet are trying to be diplomatic about this?
I’m not liking the trend here to call any dissenters disrespectful and abrasive (and Erika, I’m not calling you out, just using your words as an EXAMPLE of what’s been going on in this thread).
Last, though I am sure by now it’s hopeless, one last attempt at changing the minds of the “include your rates” camp:
Would you storm into your first job interview, exclaiming “I want $35,000 a year to take this job, not a penny more, not a penny less!” Of course not. You’re going to go in with an idea of what you want and see how closely it meshes with the employer’s idea of your worth. If the numbers are too far off in either direction, you amiably part ways. Otherwise you find wiggle room.
Does that make sense? I’m going to be blogging about this in depth tomorrow (Tuesday) and welcome your thoughts.
Rachel – I totally agree with you!
To everyone else, happy writing!
Hi James – nice to meet a fellow Canadian!