To everyone else, happy writing!

I’m not liking the trend here to call any dissenters disrespectful and abrasive (and Erika, I’m not calling you out, just using your words as an EXAMPLE of what’s been going on in this thread).

Last, though I am sure by now it’s hopeless, one last attempt at changing the minds of the “include your rates” camp:

Would you storm into your first job interview, exclaiming “I want $35,000 a year to take this job, not a penny more, not a penny less!” Of course not. You’re going to go in with an idea of what you want and see how closely it meshes with the employer’s idea of your worth. If the numbers are too far off in either direction, you amiably part ways. Otherwise you find wiggle room.

Does that make sense? I’m going to be blogging about this in depth tomorrow (Tuesday) and welcome your thoughts.

@ Saad – Man, you have *no* idea how much it’s taken me to hold back and try to be diplomatic. I had to walk away from the computer a few times. I personally don’t think I did a very good job of keeping my cool, so I appreciate that you noticed I was making an effort.

I’m sad to see that, asides my own comments, there have been two others in here (that I noticed) that mentioned people are afraid to comment on this blog. I’m even sadder to say that I don’t blame them. I’m a seasoned problogger and hell, I think twice before commenting.

The linguist side of me wants to give a reminder that writing is more than the simple conventions that we all mastered in grade school. We SHOULD be at the level where we can communicate thoughts and tones effectively. If a simple statement of opinion is too difficult for us, we should practice our art more.

True we should not be outwardly mean to each other … but everyone has a right to an opinion. (as long as it is not racist etc)

Thinking “too much” about what one is going to say is slightly stifling … and not good for a writer in my opinion.

I am not going to agree with everyone here … just for the sake of a “supportive” environment. And I don’t expect everyone to agree with me either.

Everyone has different way of doing things – and there sometimes is no “right” method … as I have mentioned in this thread before. (Yikes!)

No matter what you say or write, if you (general) don’t consider the reader, what’s the point? A respectful debate can be tricky to pull off even with all the vocal inflections, the facial expressions, hand gestures, etc.

A writing debater has to be that much more articulate and aware of possibly stepping on others if they expect to convey their message effectively. Does the person want to share their opinion into the friendly mix, or win the battle?

And by stepping on others, I don’t mean that they are in disagreement. I mean the way the messages are said that could be construed as disrespectful or invasive or brash. When the writer is not considerate of their tone as read by others, it’s the tone that is remembered and not the message.

Again, Scribette, this is not just to you. You just happen to be replying to me back and forth!! As a counselor, I see *so much* evidence of inconsiderate selfish communication methods. People just spouting out things without a thought to how those around perceive them. If they have an opinion, they have the right to just say it outloud, no matter the damage or boundaries crossed.

If everyone is so careful when they write for money, why can’t we be careful and considerate here??

It does make it somewhat difficult to debate though if we were concerned entirely what the reader may think though.

This blog “reply’ format is not like an article, for instance, where we are trying to convey a particular message to an audience.

With nothing but the written word, most everything is left open to misinterpretation. Most of communication is about the non-verbals. That’s why people break up over the phone. That’s why people can think they have found the love of their life in a chat room but they’ve never met in person. The distance allows us to “fill in the blanks” of communication ourselves, for right or for wrong.

I think that is why in a responsive format like this popular blog, everyone must be that much more observant about how they communicate. We only have few tools to help us out – a couple of emoticons, some asterisks for emphasis, ALL CAPS, and that’s about it.

The swath of the sharp word is much more unpredictable in cyberspace. Even if someone can get away with being pretty snappy and outspoken in person, they had better be aware of themselves online. As writers, our most important job is to always consider the reader. I think that priority rings true here in this blog.

To address your question, there is no right or wrong with respect to providing a quote. I ask for a budget as it a good negotiation tool. However, since you are a newbie to writing, it is probably a good idea to give rates – when asked – in order to maximize your chances of getting hired. (I think James made this point earlier)

Of course, other people may have different opinions!

Someone had this laundry list of ebooks they wanted with at least 40 pages for most of them. The budget was way way off, too low for anyone with a bit of professionalism to even try for. I wanted to bid, but I held back because the amount was so ridiculous, even for a beginner.

Slowly, a few bids came trickling in. They were at least 3-4 times the amount of the original bid!! These were writers who were quietly making a statement about how much their time was worth. Some people were keeping within the budget, but stating that they were just bidding for *one* of the six ebooks.

Either this contractor with the budget made an error on the listing, or he had no clue how much the writing was worth in the first place. Or he was really hoping for a miracle, I don’t know.

And the most interesting part – just after the bidding closed he put the project up again!! Except this time, he only put up half the project. The top end of his budget is still kind of low for the amount of work, but it’s better. That’s for writers standing up for their rates!

I’m glad you decided to post. I think some people needed the reminder. There really is no excuse for 2-3 people putting up 20+ comments apiece. Especially the one-liners.

James,

I agreed with you on an earlier point, but now I’m going to disagree. In my experience, this community is quite good. Many of the regular comment posters have important advice to contribute, and are quite classy and respectful in the way that they do it. (Like yourself, in fact. I think you’ve done an exemplary job keeping your cool for most of this discussion here.) But there are a lot of people reading this blog, and new discussants are entering all the time. Perhaps sometimes they get a little too enthusiastic?

P.S. How about them Giants?

– You made your point over and over in obnoxious fashion while insulting and talking down to people along the way. I’m sure you are a nice person, but you didn’t operate with much compassion or tact here. Constructive criticism is good among writers. Treating everyone like they are beneath you isn’t.

Deb is a very nice person and has worked hard to create a supportive community. A young writer that I know already told me today that she was “afraid” to post in this thread with a question because she didn’t want to get attacked or ridiculed. That’s pretty sad.

It seems strange that with the ability to carefully express one’s thoughts in whatever words one chooses (or not comment at all), there would still be comments that sound *reactive* – like you are talking right in front of someone and wish you could suck the words back in. How often would we all wish we could have the ability to edit ourselves in regular conversation (like we can here)?

Again, not taking a side or anything. I’m a counselor by trade, it’s my job to stand back sometimes and make oddball observations like that. Spirited conversations are great – I’m kind of sorry I didn’t catch this one until it was way past done. Maybe we could all make sure we do a quick re-read before we hit “submit comment” to be sure we remain the supportive community everyone likes.

Right now, I’m even contemplating whether to send or not.

Just a thought…

Scrib