I took some heat yesterday because I don’t necessarily agree with writers or even bloggers disclosing their earnings. I do think certain blogs such as John Chow or ShoeMoney are an exception, but for the most part I’m not so sure it’s the thing to do.
It’s impolite
I know I’m in the minority but I don’t believe it’s good manners to talk about how much one earns. Discussing salary at an office job is grounds for dismissal. Different people make different money for different reasons. Unless Writer A is doing the exact same thing as me, you can’t compare.
It’s all in the details
I see many writers post at forums about how much they earn each month, but they don’t break it down. There’s a lot to be factored into each month
- Did one outsource?
- What types of projects?
- Research?
- Rate per projects?
- Was each project the same rate?
- How long have you been writing?
- Are they making it up?
It can lead to feelings of inadequacy
There’s a lot who disagree with me on this but if I were to post my monthly earnings would other writers think they’re not good enough? I know if I saw another writer’s income and it was more than mine, I’d do a bit of soul searching to figure out what I was doing wrong. It happens with this blog all the time. I see how much traffic and revenue the top bloggers get for their blogs and wonder why I can’t achieve the same.
It’s not a competition
You don’t have to make as much as me and I don’t have to make as much as Stephen King. Earn what makes you comfortable, do what makes you happy.
So is it ever a good thing to discuss rates?
Sure. I think rates are a good motivator. When Carson, formerly of Content Done Better, issued his famous $125K challenge, I was the first to cheer him on. After all, if he could do it so could we, right? That motivated me right then and there to stop writing for a well known keyword writing portal and seek more lucrative and enjoyable forms of writing.
There’s a difference though. Carson said, "I want to make this much money and the only way I’m going to do this is by challenging myself in front of everyone." He didn’t do hit and runs at message boards saying, "I made $5000 this month, click here to find out how…" He kept it to his blog and broke it down for all to understand. It wasn’t as much to drive traffic to his blog as it was to motivate him into action.
Discussing rates can lead to awareness. Would a writer charge $3 for a job after learning many writers get paid $50 for that same piece of work? Hopefully not. But it can also lead to bad feelings and tear a community apart. I don’t tell everyone what I make simply because it’s nobody’s business. If I did, you can be sure to see a breakdown of every single project’s payment details so people know where I’m coming from.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I totally agree with. Asking how much someone earns is just another point of comparison like asking someone’s age. The key is to focus on creation not competition.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:02 am
I’m on the fence about it as well. As field, I do see the benefit in disclosing rates, but not necessarily income. The relkuctance of people to share their rates is probably half the reason none of us can agree on what we should be charging (or at least, why this question keeps going around and around). That lack of consistency has to have a lot to do with the huge disparity among rates offered by clients, too. There is a difference in rveealing rates as opposed to income, though.
I don’t personally out a lot of stock in what others say they make, because it is all relative. As you say, it has to do with the job, but it also has to do with what you put into it. HOW MANY HOURS DO YOU WORK IN A DAY? Without knowing esential details like that, there’s no way to qualify someone’s income. You can’t count on making the same if you do not have the time, resources, or interest in putting in the same time/work commitment.
I think anyone who relies on the example of others’ income would be very wise to consider the fine points of getting there, and not just take the figures at face value.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:06 am
I think one of the key things is to differentiate between income and rates. I have no interest in another person’s income and it is no-one else’s business what I make.
Now rates on the other hand would be good to have a general idea of, especially as a beginner, although again even those can be relative. One person may charge 50 cents per word minimum whereas a beginner may not be able to demand that same rate.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:27 am
I remember the turning point in my writing career came when I found out how much another (and mediocre) writer was charging for her work. It gave me a jolt - till then I’d assumed writers were getting paid peanuts. I just didn’t know better. It pushed me to demand a better rate for myself too.
But I don’t need to know how much someone else makes, because there are so many other factors involved. Plus, it doesn’t really motivate me or anything, to know someone is making 10 grand a month.
Now, rates? That’s another issue! Although there are plenty of lies and delusions of grandeur there too!
April 4th, 2008 at 12:43 am
I’m English so we’re a bit reticent about money in our culture but my experience is it’s easier to negotiate down than up, so ask a higher price and what you really feel a job is worth where possible, but be prepared to negotiate, and they will say- that’s too high, and maybe point you in the direction of their allocated budget. It’s easier to negotiate the more information you have- that’s why I think an industry does people a favour when it’s more open about wages, people can make informed choices.
For a writer though a lot of it is always goign to be for personal satisfaction and fulfillment so if a job is motivating or you learn from it or make a friend- it was worthwhile whatever the pay! And somethings are never going to be worth any money…
There’s a lot of self-help writing in recent years about women and money and about the concepts of ‘underearning’ or ’self-sabotage’. If you’re continually feeling dissatisfied with income it may be time to check out your own feelings around money, for example a common reason people underearn is they have beliefs about how money is negative or will change their relationships, so they might have to come up with strategies to counter that or undo beliefs!
April 4th, 2008 at 1:28 am
I totally agree with others re: rates vs income. I would love to learn more about what others charge per various types of projects.
I just had an email exchange with an employer who wanted to use me to write recipes. I’ve done this in the past. The last note I sent to her was my rate per recipe, as requested. Haven’t heard from her since. I’m bummed that it looks to have fallen through. But then I tell myself that I set a fair rate and if I did it for less, I’d end up cursing that I was spending the time for less pay.
So.. it would have been nice to learn more about what others charge per recipe (I researched it and didn’t find much.)
April 4th, 2008 at 1:49 am
I don’t really think this is a moral issue (right or wrong). If someone wants to tell others how much they make, then that’s their prerogative. Personally, I wouldn’t feel inadequate if I learned another writer makes more than me. I know there are some who make more and some who make less. If anything, it might motivate or inspire me to increase my earnings.
I like learning what others charge and how much they make because it helps me assess my own work and figure out where I am in my business and industry. Instead of taking an emotional hit, I think writers can use this information to their advantage.
Having said that, if someone wants to keep their earnings private, I completely respect that as well. I don’t go around publishing what I make to the world, but I talk pretty openly about it with friends and family.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Melissa pretty much covered my opinion, but that won’t stop me from ranting.
As I responded in Jodee’s post, I’ve told people my rates. I don’t go around spamming message boards with “I make $5000 a week, click here.” To me, that sounds more like a scam-artist ploy. I have nothing to gain from disclosing my rates. I’m not selling anything.
But I think sharing my rates (or earnings) once in a while is important. It’s the only way I can prove my point that not all bloggers are earning pennies, or that not all web content writers work cheap. I’m happy to send proof to anyone who wants it. I don’t see that as being impolite. And frankly, if someone feels bad about themselves, I don’t really see that as my problem. There are a lot of people who earn a heck of a lot more than what I make, and that doesn’t make me feel bad. I don’t feel the need to compete with anyone, and I certainly don’t think I’m creating a competition by telling someone how much I make.
I’m not saying anyone should ever be forced to disclose their rates, but I’m having a hard time seeing why those of us who do are in the wrong (or impolite). Maybe I’m missing something here, but if not then I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the impoliteness factor Deb. I respect your opinion, and I have the utmost respect for you always. I just disagree.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:22 am
Goodness Amy, please do disagree. I don’t have all the answers here so I’m always interested at how others feel. I respect your (and everyone else here) opinion as well.
I don’t believe people who are posting their rates are wrong, I just don’t agree with the practice. Maybe it’s my age, but it’s not something that makes me comfortable.
As far as sharing earnings, as I said, it depends. I don’t think it benefits anyone to learn so and so makes $8,000 per month. It might benefit them more to learn so and so charges $75 per hour.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:29 am
Absolute Write and WAHM are both forums for “writers”. It’s not like people are announcing their income to the general public. I find it helpful and inspiring to learn what others make. Sure they may work more hours than me or have higher paying gigs but it’s still a goal to strive for. I don’t expect them to fork over their list of clients. Chris has stated before that any topic can be profitable.
In my opinion, Chris is trying to encourage others to earn more and to let them know that a writing career can be lucrative.
If another writer feels inferior because Chris earns more than they do, I’d say they need to deal with their insecurity issues. I’m willing to bet your family doctor doesn’t earn nearly as much as a brain surgeon. Does that mean he/she isn’t a good doctor? If I see an attractive actress or model on television, should I feel inferior about my appearance? Feeling bad because another writer earns more than you is just plain silly. We’re all adults here. We should be able to praise others for their accomplishments instead of whining because we haven’t reached that level yet.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:35 am
@Catherine, I’d like to make one thing clear. I don’t want to suggest the blogger has any other motive than to help other writers. I get that part. I, personally, don’t feel comfortable with the practice. Nor do I necessarily agree with how it was done. I do appreciate her motives however.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:40 am
Deb, I agree with you about the monthly earning thing not being a good gauge. I am a workaholic. I get up around 8 or 9am, often work until 4am. My monthly earnings would sound REALLY impressive if someone assumed I worked a 4-hr workday. So I totally see your point there.
Re the comfortability factor… I have no idea how old you are. I’m 28, but online we all kind of seem ageless to me. (Is that odd?) I’d never considered age being a factor. But perhaps you’re right. My mother would probably drop dead if she knew I’d posted my rate (or my name even) on “the dangerous internet”!!
April 4th, 2008 at 4:10 am
I think that it is a personal choice (no right or wrong) - I personally choose not to disclose income.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:38 am
Did I miss something? Who’s Chris?
April 4th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I don’t find it offensive or feel insecure if I see how much more someone is making than me. And a few months ago, I did share my monthly income on AW (in a thread about the topic).
I agree that some people are tacky about it or push it in your face, but others are just sharing their accomplishments and trying to show others how it’s possible to make a good living by writing. I think most new writers would find it encouraging.
I have actually been a lot more offended by the people who constantly say stuff like, “You write for XXX? Ugh .. I wouldn’t consider it. I don’t write for less than a dollar a word.” or “No writers should ever take jobs for less than XXX amount.” Everyone’s situations are different and there may be times when you need to work for cheap.
Anyway, I think it’s just a personal choice.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
I don’t think anyone here feels insecure hearing about higher incomes. I can understand how it motivates new writers, but insecurity for other writers? I don’t agree.
And how does it help anyone to post your entire monthly income (without breakdown) on a forum? I can understand if you’re posting it on your blog - after all, it’s your blog, and you can do whatever you want in there.
Ultimately, learning how much someone makes isn’t going to help you make that much. It’s all up to you. You have to stop reading up on how much someone else makes, and actually go out there and start making some of your own!
April 4th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
@preschool mama - I agree that it won’t help anyone to learn what I earn. If I posted here that I made $6500 last month - would that help you? No, because we don’t do the same thing. We don’t have the same exactly clients, we don’t have the same amount of blogs, we don’t do the same exact thing.
Now if you and I wrote the same type of article - same word count, same research, same sources - for the same magazine and we both posted our income from that client it would be more helpful.
It’s ok. I understand I’m in the minority. I stand by what I said though.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
People are underpaid because society has taught us it’s impolite to talk about earnings. If we talked openly about it people, particualrily women, would find they are not being paid the same as their counterparts and would demand more.
As long is someone is willing to do a job on the cheap and keeps it to themselves, or the few high paid poeple don’t talk about how much they earn, the rest of us will be underpaid because we don’t understand what we’re worth.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
@Marion - I understand that part,though I don’t necessarily agree. There are ways to calculate wages. I don’t understand how throwing out a figure each month will help.
To say I earned x amount of dollars only tells you I earned that much money. What would help is to say, I earn $35 per hour writing web content, $20 per hour blogging and my freelance print rates are dependent on what they magazine pays. That’s helpful. It tells me what certain jobs earn. I have no way of knowing if this is the average but I can sort of gauge what I should be earning. (These are made up figures, by the way.)
Saying I earned $8000 a month and so can you…that doesn’t tell me anything.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Many good points by all. I’ve posted some generalities about income, more to show what can be done (and I don’t have a site/book/offering to sell). But, like Amy, I work a ton of hours, and unlike many others here, I’m the major source of income for my family, don’t have youngsters at home (actually taking one on a college visit in two weeks), and have already fought the “what will the market bear” battle (though it never ends).
It’s also important to recognize income vs profits. I hire subcontractors for some work, which boosts both sides of the ledger, though it boosts the income side more. Highly recommend basic acccounting for those in or planning to be in serious income-earning mode. Things like revenues, expeses, profits, opportunity costs, depreciation (how quickly is that new computer outdated) and return on investment are invaluable concepts.
April 4th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
I think if you are going to discuss rates and have it be a meaningful discussion, you also need to include details about the writer’s background and level of experience. It makes sense that someone with a journalism degree or technical background would be qualified for different jobs (and a different rate of pay) than someone without those qualifications. It’s probably not a fair comparison to look at rates for someone who is relatively new to someone with a number of years of experience under their belt.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“As far as sharing earnings, as I said, it depends. I don’t think it benefits anyone to learn so and so makes $8,000 per month. It might benefit them more to learn so and so charges $75 per hour.” By Deb
I finally found something I agree with. I would not mind seeing someone say they make $8000 a month if they would tell me what they charge an hour or per word and such.
Also, what type of writing are they doing. I can say that I make $700 last week, but more important is how I made it. Did I find a client with money to spend, or did I work 60 hours and almost die doing it.
If you tell people how much you make, you should tell them how you do it so that others can benefit from your information.
April 4th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Deb,
I want to say thank you for opening my eyes to a new perspective. I started following another freelancer’s lead and posted my monthly income. Several people have told me it is very motivational to them. But I’m sure equal numbers felt “bad” about their own earnings after hearing it. (I don’t necessary feel bad when I hear of other freelancers earning more–I use it as a benchmark to either work harder, work smarter, or strive for higher paying gigs). But that may not be the case for everyone.
I have to say–and this is a complete 180–I agree with you! Now, I’m not saying other people shouldn’t. I’m far too much of a libertarian to pass judgements like that. Just that, I feel like, right now, it is no longer the right choice for me.
So thank you once again, Deb!
Dawn
April 4th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
I publish my starting rates on my website so that potential clients can see that I am not the $10 press release writer or the .0001/word write they might be looking for. I don’t want to bother with people who are looking for that kind of content. But my rates are just that, a starting point based on the project. I also set my rates on what I need to earn. I live in Mexico, so what I need to live is different than someone who lives in San Diego. Since I have local clients, I can’t charge what I would charge in the states and expect local businesses to hire me. I don’t think it’s fair to charge a regional rate either, so my rates are fair to the market in which I live.
I love reading about what other people earn as writers. Reading enough about what other people make helps me create an average in my head of what I can expect for certain kinds of work. I am especially interested in mysterious earnings like eHow, Hub Pages, Squidoo, etc…
April 5th, 2008 at 6:04 am
Hmmm, this will learn me to read here before I go and do something like post typical wages at NBT. Although, I did not disclose clients or even perfectly exact wages, just super typical to what I see going on. I hope it didn’t seem impolite.
I will say that when I was a new writer, way back in the day, I found it really useful when people honestly told me what they made. Going in, knowing I had a son to support, it made me more comfortable knowing what I could potentially expect. Also, it’s one of the most typical forum questions ever, “How much do writers/bloggers really make?” Everyone wants to know.
April 5th, 2008 at 8:54 am
I really appreciated this article. While I realize that rates have so many variables it is nice to have parameters to know if you’re being grossly underpaid. When I started writing a couple of years ago I had no idea and no one to ask. I was so stinking happy that someone was actually paying me to do what I love it took me a minute to realize that I could have made more as a fry chef. I cheer on writers who are rocking in higher incomes. There’s room for us all and I happy to celebrate others successes. It also motivates me to keep challenging myself to get better. On the other hand if rates are shared in blaring red letters accompanied by long sales copy and lots of self promotional hype..well, not exactly my cup of tea. When sharing is done with a purpose to help and in good taste, it’s all good!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:44 am
I don’t think age has anything to do with being uncomfortable about discussing/comparing earnings or any other personal finance discussion.
When I was just out of high school, one of my best friends would tell me details about his financial situation. I’m talking, “I didn’t have the money to cover the Mastercard bill, so I’m going to need to pay a penalty next month.” detail. These conversations would make me so uncomfortable because I always saw someone’s personal financial situation as their problem and only their business.
As far as mentioning rates, that can’t be anything but a good thing. When I was first looking into the freelance writing concept, I was shocked at how low the prevailing rate seemed to be. I say ’seemed’ because I was going by looking at bids on elance and sites like that. I wouldn’t have even started freelancing if there weren’t people talking about how those rates were bottom of the barrel rates and usually bought bottom of the barrel writing.
This same disclosure that helped me decide to get started in the first place might also make someone new to the industry charge a decent rate for him or herself and manage some staying power, rather than being a quickly burned-out, bitter ex-writer.
I do agree though, that earnings don’t matter.