Yet Another Post About Wages: Yes I DO Want You to Succeed
April 23, 2008 by Deb Ng
Filed under Freelance Writing
Man on man. I’m getting absolutely slammed in my emails. It’s been going on in the past couple of weeks but after posting the LoveToKnow ad yesterday it totally spiked.
The last couple of weeks brought a bunch of angry notes wondering why I don’t look out for writers like I used to.I also received a lot of lumps due to my reluctance to tell people what to charge and my feeling uncomfortable posting my wages for the world to see. So, at the risk or sounding angry and unhinged, here goes:
Here’s how I feel about freelance writing rates
1. I want you to succeed. I want you to make so much money with your writing you can retire at an early age on a tropical island somewhere. Just because I post a job paying under "market rates" whatever that might be, doesn’t make me a sellout.
2. Wages are a personal thing. Different writers make different amounts just as different programmers, different school bus drivers and different teachers earn differently. I could tell you I earn $80 an hour but does that mean you should tell your clients to pay you the same? No, because we probably don’t have the same background and experience. We don’t have the same lifestyle, our cost of living might be different, and we might do different types of writing. There are a lot of factors going in to what one writer charges – and I can’t figure it out for you. I could tell you I make $50.000 a year, but that doesn’t tell you how I did it. Instead of telling you I make a certain amount, I’d rather help you learn how to determine a good, realistic wage for you.
3. Writing for the web is different from writing for print. I can’t suggest market rates for web work because they haven’t been established. Different places pay different wages.If a wage isn’t for you move on to the next one. Instead of taking the time to write to me or an employer to insult, why not take the time to show newer writers where to find the lucrative gigs? Use your time in a positive manner instead of being negative. You can complain or you can be part of the solution.
4. It’s not up to me to set the bar. I’m not the freelance writing boss of the Internet. It’s not up to me to tell clients what to pay and it’s not up to me to tell other writers what to accept. You can quote your own wages when you apply for a job, or let the client set a rate – only you know what that rate should be.
5. If you really want to know what to earn do some math.How much research will you have to do? How time-intensive is the project? How well do you know the subject matter? Is it a big named client or a small webmaster? What do you need to earn to support your family? What is a good wage in your area? What do you feel is fair?
6. It’s none of your business what I earn.
7. It’s none of my business what you earn.
8. Use your best judgement. $2 is a dumb wage. Everyone knows that. No one should ever start out on any job anywhere for $2. an hour.
$10 or $20 an hour. on the other hand, works for many people in many areas. It’s above minimum wage and in some necks of the woods, it’s an awesome hourly rate. Who am I to say it isn’t? Better yet, who are any of us to say it isn’t? Now, I’d rather post jobs paying a lot more money but they’re not always out there. If we only found $50 an hour job, we’d post them, I promise.
9. I didn’t "change my mind." I always fight for proper wages for writers, but I can’t be the Internet Police. On another blog I was a lot more vocal about scams and low wages. I’ll still fight for you, but you need to fight too. Someone has to be working $2 jobs for so many of them to be available. The only people who can change this are the people accepting the gigs. Ignore them and they’ll go away.
Rant over
Well that turned into a bit of a rant, didn’t it? Sorry about that. I’d just like you to know I do care about writers, and I do care about your success, but I don’t think nasty emails because you don’t like a posted gig is the way to go about changing the writing world. If you like a gig, apply. If you don’t like a gig, move on to the next one. If you think I’m wrong and I shouldn’t be posting certain jobs, tell us how to find the high paying jobs since you must be getting them somewhere.
I’m always here from you. You”re welcome to email, Skype, Twitter or comment over your questions and I’ll do my best to steer you in the right directions. Please don’t write to me asking what you should charge for your projects, only you can determine that.
Yikes. I can’t believe some people will still not give this up. Don’t get discouraged and please keep plugging along…
I believe completely that you want your readers and visitors to succeed. If you didn’t, you and Jodee wouldn’t be here daily to give us the inspiration and leads that you do. I think most of it is fear in messing up – not giving the right price and basically underbidding our work. That was a difficult thing for me to learn when I first started out, but eventually I took the plunge and just did it. I learned from reading and “listening” to others. Yes, there are still times I might ask a question that has been asked a million times before and thankfully there is always someone with a helpful reply.
Hi Deb
just thought I’d add my tuppence worth, to say that I think you are absolutely right!
I would never ask you how much you earn, and wouldn’t expect you to ask me. If you earn a fortune, congratulations.
As for those who are berating you for your postings, the answer is simple, either don’t read them, or better still, just don’t apply for those you think are too cheap (sheesh)
Because I think that is the point- your market rate is, certainly initially, and probably always partly determined by what you consider a fair rate for your valuable time. I signed up to Elance, but then terminated my membership because i wasn’t getting any work, which was 97% down to the fact that I was competing with providers in India and Asia who could and would work for a rate i wouldn;t even consider, but to them it is worthwhile.
So anyway, thank you for your postings, I really appreciate reading them everyday. I just wish you did one in the UK too! If only…
sam
People need to stop wasting their time griping about this. They should focus on all their $$$-per hour jobs and leave those who take low-ball jobs alone. I guess at their high rates they have time to troll and complain….
rock on, D.
What a great rant!
I’ve been researching the writing business for over a year and a half now-through this site and other sources, and I just recently decided what I should charge to write and whether or not to apply for certain jobs. It just took that long for me to get enough information and feel comfortable and confident about it.
Before I became a stay-at-home mom, I worked in the education field. I have an undergraduate and graduate degree. I know I was underpaid, and I know I was worth more money. But I loved my job, and that was worth a lot more than anyone could pay me. My point is that there are lots of unfair wages. Sometimes we can do something about it but other times we can’t.
I would like to make money from writing as much as the next person, and I do think we should all be paid fairly for it, but it is not Deb’s responsibility or Jodee’s responsibility to tell us what to do.
I appreciate the jobs you both post for all of us.
You’ve got to be kidding me. I am amazed that people take the time to write these things to you, Deb.
If I don’t say it enough, thank you for this site and the encouragement you give us all.
You know, I also write for LTK and am a site editor there. The people really ARE wonderful. The way I’ve been able to work that job so that it’s beneficial for me is to write on topics I’m very familiar with (they do try to find out what your interests are), so they don’t take a lot of time. Yes, it’s a lower per word rate but the hourly rate is good for me. True, I’m not the breadwinner in my family, nor am I trying to be, but I’m almost to the point where I make the same salary I made in my last office job in half the working hours.
Since I’m a work-at-home mom, working 8 hours a day isn’t going to cut it, not if I want to continue to have real quality time with my kids every day. But I’m also working on making LTK my lowest paying gig and I know I can do that. Deb’s and Jodee’s work here are helping me do that; in the past couple of months alone, I’ve landed a few gigs from this blog.
I’m trying to work smarter, not harder. I’m not a big-time copywriter or anything like that; maybe if I were trying to only find jobs that paid $100/hour, I’d probably search somewhere else instead of coming here and complaining. But if I can make $20-$30/hour, which is how I figure out if a gig is worth it to ME, then I’m happy. And I’d never begrudge someone who provides a FREE service that she/they don’t have to provide.
Deb,
I agree with what you wrote. You shouldn’t be the one to do someone else’s homework. I’m new at freelancing and I know there are plenty of articles online that can help people determine what wage they should charge. It’s everyone’s OWN responsibility to figure that out THEMSELVES.
Also, thank you for continuing to post the $10 per hour jobs. I live in the upper Midwest where that is a good wage.
Thank you so much for this wonderful site. I have found it so helpful and have even gotten a job from here.
Please – there’s no need to thank me, that’s not what this is about. I really enjoy everything Jodee and I do here – I just get frustrated sometimes because there are people who feel it’s up to me to determine and set rates.
Some people look for guidance with rates, which I did when I started on my own. But people have to determine what makes sense for them.
And even those of us with established rates will change for emergencies.
I took on a low-paying project last week to help cover the cost of my daughter’s wisdom teeth extraction (all four), but it was below customary rates and it put me behind when higher paying projects came in.
Though the job didn’t come from here, I was glad to have the opportunity to take or reject the work — I’ll reject it next time because the work took longer to complete than I had anticipated and wasn’t worth my time, bills or no bills.
I agree with you on what you posted Deb but my only thought on the subject is that it would be nice to see a median. You can go onto several databases and find a median on how much a certain career makes, but obviously not for writing. On that note, it really isn’t up to you to provide that median. There are tons of writing books out there geared towards freelance and most of them have a median rate guide to work with.
My other thought (I guess I had two), is that 10 dollars is considered a great wage for many. I stood on the edge of writing for years, never pursuing it because I didn’t feel that I could make a sustainable income from it. Instead I went into a field that ended up paying me next to nothing. With a post secondary degree, I was making less in a year than a parking garage attendant. (And I was teaching children, what’s more important cars or kids?)
Finally, after my second baby, I looked into how much I would have to spend on childcare, etc and I realized that I would make $50 every two weeks working 45 hours per week. Now I make much more than that, but I shudder when people turn their noses up at a 10 or 20 dollar an hour job doing something that they are supposed to love. I don’t agree with the 2 dollars an article and I have been told several times that I charge too much but I just shrug and walk away. No matter how much I want to write about a topic, if I don’t feel it’s worth it I don’t bite. I also do not gripe at the clients or yell at other writers that may take it or who posted it on their blog.
I like to think that if I handle myself well I will be rewarded for it eventually.
Ok, I started ranting too but I wanted to share, I know I don’t very often.
You know, I am never able to quite figure out why commenters and emailers feel so free to be hateful because blog owners (theoretically) can’t figure out who wrote the mean comments. This happens in every online community, and it makes no sense. Would I walk up to someone I worked with and tell them they were stupid, biased, etc.? Obviously not.
I think some folks have an axe to grind and think the Internet Cloak of Invisibility gives them license to be unprofessional or downright obnoxious. Even the most thick-skinned of us doesn’t want to deal with that.
For the record, I’ve been reading job listings and blog posts here for a long time now, and I think this is a helpful and supportive community. Whether Deb and Jodee turn a profit is immaterial from the user’s point of view; Deb brings in great guest bloggers, contributes insight based on experience, and connects us all. Jodee does that time-consuming job searching so we don’t have to, and in this business, time is definitely money. Isn’t that what brought most readers here?
I agree with Deb. If you don’t like the wages a particular employer offers, that is just fine. Don’t apply. Please be civil, though, in your correspondence. You never know when a colleague could become an editor – with hiring power.
Deb, I wasn’t aware you were in the business of recruiting and headhunting for us – I do not now nor have I ever assumed you were the internet police, negotiating pay rates for the entire freelance writing industry!! However, could you please post jobs that include a car allowance as well as pay 10.00 a word? I would appreciate it.
Seriously, it’s amazine how people think. This site has proven to be a very valuable resource and every time I land a gig off here, I donate a small token of my thanks. (It’s happened twice – I don’t apply for many and certainly don’t get every one I do apply for.) Again, that’s in my hands, not yours. Thanks for all your and Jodi’s hard work!
You know, I work almost exclusively what many writers would consider “low wage” content writing jobs (not $2 jobs, I promise!). I am making WAY more than I ever did in almost 10 years as a preschool teacher and day care provider (and I’ve worked them all from center-based to preschool, to home daycare). My income has become a serious household contribution, so YES there is a place for “lower” wages.
I also talked with a US writer this week who lives in Fiji, and since the going wage over there is $2 per hour, he thinks $5 to $10 an hour is pretty darned good!
I’m cheering. Deb, way to go. Thanks for strapping on the balls and saying it straightforward. You’re right 200% and I’m behind you every step of the way.
you are absolutely correct. unfortunately, there will always be people who aren’t happy – that’s the way it works on the Internet for sure.
For the record, I don’t bother with the majority of the jobs you post because either they aren’t in my line or they are way below what I would accept. But every once in a while, there is something.
I also check Craigslist listings across the continent every day too. The very vast majority of those jobs are crap and I wouldn’t bother even responding, but you know what? Amid the posts I have to sift through, I have landed some *wonderful* clients who pay me well.
The people who are crapping on you are just miserable people who want to be spoonfed and don’t want to take responsibility for themselves. It’s way easier to blame a faceless person on the ‘net.
Well, Deb, this is the first time I have visited … via James’ tweet! (Thank you, James!)
It seems to me, having had a quick look round, that you do an amazing job of supporting other writers, I’m bewildered to hear people have responded as they have.
You’re right, it’s none of anyone’s business what you earn and even as a total newbie, I would think that what any individual writer earns is irrelevant anyway. (Isn’t that the whole thing about freelancers, they all earn write very different things in very different places and therefore probably earn very different amounts?)
Good for you, for pointing it out! And for highlighting the fact that people are ultimately responsible for themselves.
I think that some people are purposely trying to push your buttons….it’s like a sick game. I know a few people who like to upset others, and then joke about it later. On the other hand, you’ve got your haters who can’t cut it as a freelance writer. Rather than acknowledge their own shortcomings, they would rather nitpick and place the blame on others.
Keep on, Deb. You’re doing a service to all writers out there, and I hope you know that those among us who are not ungrateful little wankers salute you and your awesomeness.
I often look at the jobs posted here and apply for some. I certainly don’t think that people should expect you, or anyone else for that matter, to determine what their rates should be. Hope this doesn’t deter you from keeping on with good work and advice to be found here.
You know what. I swear some people rant strictly to stir things up. I just returned from Maine where I had the best conversation with the owner of an area beer store. She doesn’t promote domestic beers – Bud, Miller, etc. because she feels they are of poor quality and don’t deserve the promotion the way microbrews do. She’s had a lot of people walk out of the store for that reason, but she won’t give up her beliefs.
She said that while the store turns somewhat of an income, enough to pay the bills, she’s doing what she LOVES, so she doesn’t care if she’s getting rich. She’s the sweetest store owner I’ve ever met and I only hope the money I spent stocking up on microbrews and hard to find beers brought her in some extra income this week!
What you earn is totally subjective. I have a writing job where I am earning 3 cents per word – GASP – and you know what, the woman is the sweetest person I could be writing for. She pays every Friday regularly. I love that job, but many feel it is horrible pay. I average $150 a week for 2 hours a day – that’s as much as my husband makes (he has a college degree) per hour – and it gives me the freedom to spend afternoon’s with my kids the second they get home from school.
I also write for a big name Web site writing 300 to 500 word articles from anywhere from $25 to $50 each. I haven’t been paid since March 1st. I’ve asked where the check is four times now and been told it was mailed so I should have it but they’ll “wait another week” before issuing a new one.
Sometimes, the lower paying jobs are far superior. It doesn’t always have to be about the income but rather enjoying the people you are working for!
Wonder where these negative nay-sayers are now…no comments for the rest of us–just hiding behind one email to you? ha.
hi deb,
i cannot believe people think like that.I am a regular visitoe on ur site to find leads for me but then i cannot expect to get one for sure.Once i got,but he didnt pay me ,but thats not ur fault and in no case i can blame you.Everybody is different and one can never compare others with anybody..ridiculous
Oh Deb… You need large Internet hugs to keep dealing with these people (and chocolate… lots of chocolate)!
I agree with you, del, and AnnG, I am working to write smarter not harder. I have gigs that pay $25/hour, $75/hour and $10-20/hour.
The thing is, it’s MY choice! (Do you hear that mean commenting/emailing hiding people???) It’s not Deb’s or Jodee’s job to go out there and tell someone they can’t post their ad here because it’s too low.
Coming to Deb’s and getting the majority of the jobs available all in one place is like going through the Help Wanted section in the paper, you peruse the listings, apply to what you want and bypass the ones you don’t.
Simple. It’s not rocket science! Besides, FWJ holds one extra perk over the newspaper (two if you want to go green), there’s no recycling involved and I don’t pay to come here. Deb provides this for free.
It’s time that the people who don’t get why you do what you do, move on and concentrate on finding the rates that they think they should be writing for.
Dear Deb,
Just a quick note to say that the work you do is amazing. I am so thankful for your job listings.
Keep up the good fight!
Deb,
I’ve been visiting this board for about a year. I’ve never posted before but after reading what’s been going on lately, I had to throw my 2 cents in as well.
I love this board. I work at a brick and mortar job full-time and freelance write when I’m able. I don’t often have time myself to search for leads myself, and I find the services that you and Jodee provide to be invaluable.
I’ve been guilty of taking some of the lower paying jobs myself…but it’s what I want to do right now. Since I do work full-time outside of writing, I don’t always have the time to do what’s often necessary for the higher paying jobs.
My hope in the near future is to boot my other job and strictly concentrate on my writing. Then I’ll be more interested in some of the higher paying gigs.
It’s my choice, and I truly appreciate the fact that you do include lower paying jobs in your leads. If I find one I think is too low, I don’t apply. It’s that simple.
Keep up the good work!
I always LOVE to read the articles (here or elsewhere) where writers talk about how much money they make, or how much you should make. I bet 80% of them lie, and I bet that 95% of the people reading them have no chance of ever making that amount based on their ability and the effort they want to put into their writing.
The truth is, writing is VERY individual unlike other professions. I’m sure it takes every employee on the GM assembly line around the same amount of time to put on a car door. That is not true in writing. I often take on “low paying” projects because it turns out that I’m pretty good at this writing thing and I can crank out good work in much less time than is “standard”, especially if I already have topic experience and don’t need to do a lot research. So, when a guy posts something about a 600 word article on a topic that is right up my alley and will only be paying $15 per post, I might do it anyway. It’s not because I live in a slum in India, it’s because I can probably crank that out in 15 to 20 minutes. Hourly rate for “low-paying” job suddenly becomes $50-$60 an hour.
For those people that want someone else to decide what is a “good” lead, if you can’t tell the difference between a job posting that is a “good” one and one that is a “bad” one, then maybe you need to build up some more experience before you consider yourself a professional.
Keep posting those leads! It saves me hundreds of hours I’m sure. I for one am VERY grateful.
So, thank you.
I’m going to break it down ha! First, that’s rude to ask someone how much money they charge or make, for that matter. Second, if these freelancers are professional, mature and responsible people they will use their noggin to figure out their fees/rates. As a consultant and a freelance writer, I’ve had to figure it out myself plus I think it helps that I’ve worked in the crazy business world (well, the insane non-profit fundraising world ha!) It’s basically common sense. It makes me wonder about all these stalker freelancers??? Get a life, no offense, and just figure it out yourself!