by Deborah Ng
I know you like to discuss rates because that’s what we writers like to do. We like to get the best rates for our work. We also like to help others understand that $10 is perhaps a little on the low side and they can do better.
Now in some parts of the world, and even this country, $10 for 30 minutes or even an hour’s worth of work is a decent rate. Not all agree. I do like to offer something for all writers, however. If the job boards were filled with $50 and $100 jobs, that’s what you’d see here. Jodee and I tossed around the idea of raising the minimum to $20 gigs but the pickings would be very scarce and I’d lose more than half my traffic for those seeking $10 to $20 jobs. It’s not up to me to decide what someone else should be paid.
With that said, I don’t mind taking part in discussions offering guidance and helping new writers to find their worth.
Here’s my problem. The negativity in some of the client posts - these are the posts featuring a single job- is scaring away other community members from commenting and it’s scaring away people who want to post gigs here. Sure, they can post the job somewhere else but then we’re not getting first shot, plus by everyone going to another job board I lose traffic and revenue. This makes it harder for me to pay the people who work here and implement some changes.
I do hope to one day have a forum where you can all discuss these issues in depth, but at the moment I can’t afford to make anymore changes. So all I ask is that when you see a job standing alone in its own post, please refrain from the negativity out of respect to the client and out of respect to Jodee and the people who visit this blog every day. I do think it’s important to discuss and educate, however. So respectful discussions of rates are welcome and encouraged in all daily job leads posts and any articles. I think that’s fair, don’t you?
In addition, I give you this gift. A rates discussion free for all. Anything goes as long as there’s no name calling, vulgarity, or personal attacks - which doesn’t usually happen here anyway. Discuss rates, complain about rates, ask questions about rates and offer solutions to the low rates issue.
I hope this is a good compromise.
July 8th, 2008 at 7:51 am
You are so right!
Well said, deb!
July 8th, 2008 at 7:54 am
With all due respect, you can have forum after forum about what rates freelancers should expect for their work, but in the end it’s like the Presidential debates, all talk, and precious little action.
The fact of the matter is that the jobs that are posted on boards that are accessible to all are, for the most part, jobs that aren’t designed for the truly seasoned professional. Those jobs remain in the hidden job market, accessible primarily through contacts made along the way. Sometimes these jobs are advertised, but this isn’t done that often.
The other thing to remeember is, as Deb has often pointed out, a good rate is in the eye of the beholder. If you have a part-time job, $10 gigs aren’t so bad, If you depend on your writing as your only source of income, then $10 gigs do very little to further your financial goals.
The trick to mastering this endless shell game of rates is to work yourself up to a position where you are offered the jobs that pay the great rates through personal contacts. There is no short cut to this position. You have to pay your dues, hone your craft, and take your lumps from editors. Once you have those battle scare, then you’ve earned the right to command those lofty rates.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:09 am
I feel compelled to comment and discuss! I totally understand everything you wrote, Deb, and I really love this site and appreciate everything you folks do on here. I feel like I’ve learned so much in the past few weeks since I’ve been visiting here daily. But sometimes I get so frustrated with rates and I just need to talk about it. When I see a post offering only a few dollars for 500 word articles, it makes my heart hurt so badly. It makes me scared I’ll never be able to make a living at doing this and wonder who can possibly afford to spend the time writing a 500 word article for only $8. I checked the rates at the Editorial Freelancers Association (http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.html) and I see them saying the going rate for writing is $40-$125 per hour.
It’s such a conundrum. On one hand, of course our work is worth that much. It’s so difficult, what we do. On the other, it seems so hard to find someone who can/will post jobs paying that amount. Where are these magical clients paying the rates offered on this site? Further, what does it mean when I have a lean month and I take one of these super low paying gigs? Am I helping to take the bottom out of the industry when I need gas money in a flash?
July 8th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Here’s a topic where everyone’s going to come out to have their say…
With that said, I have always and will always say that it is up to the writer to decide what they’re happy earning. I’ve been bashed on other boards about that and won’t ever change my opinion. I write to earn enough to keep food on my table and the house heated in the winter. What others think of that is really not my concern. So if I take one of the $10 or $20 jobs that others are up in arms, so be it. And if they feel I’m snagging jobs from them and being unfair (I’ve heard that one many times) I appreciate their position, but that’s just how competition works.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:25 am
I am so glad to get the opportunity to discuss this here, Deb. I thank you so much for all you folks do here because I visit this site every day and have learned a lot and gotten some pretty amazing opportunities here. That said, it still makes my heart hurt when I see jobs here (and on every other freelance writing site I frequent!) offering $8 for 500+ word articles. Sometimes the language the job posters use is so flippant, like “easy, breezy quick articles… you can do loads per hour!” It makes me so angry sometimes, thinking about how hard it is to write really smart writing and to see it so under-valued. Who can afford to write for so little? I’d have to be writing around the clock just to make enough money in a day.
I was discussing this very issue with some colleagues the other day and we turned to the Editorial Freelancers Association site, a professional organization (that costs nearly $200 per year…) for freelance writers, editors and proofreaders. They have a rates page with the going rates as they seem: http://www.the-efa.org/res/rates.html. While on one hand I was overjoyed to see writers listed as deserving $45-$125 per hour, on the other all I could think about was “where are these magical clients willing to pay this much?” Some days I really need $20. When I take one of those gigs offering it, am I helping to take the bottom out of the industry? I don’t know what the answer is.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:25 am
It’s your website. Delete the posts and ban the people from commenting who threaten your business by bashing your advertisers.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:29 am
I think we all appreciate having a larger selection to view. It is up to the individual to decide what their bottom line will be. This is why I personally prefer to use the online publishers that will allow you to collect over time, but you have to be pretty internet savvy with all the social media to be able to promote your articles. However, the payoff is worth it once you get a hang of the system…
Anyways, I’d like to add a special thank you to the wonderful ladies that bring us these posts. I have found them very useful.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:48 am
@ Adam - You hit the nail on the head. This is, after all, a business; and in business, you take whatever actions are necessary to keep yourself profitable. If that means banning people, then so be it.
Of course, you have to be prepared for the negative fallout because these people will take their case to the streets, as it were, and bash you every chance they get. The question becomes is it worth banning? I think so, because these people are doing more harm by betting up job posters than they can do bashing the site for banning them.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:49 am
I also appreciate all that Deb and Jodee do here and I do have to agree with Deb that although I visit regularly it is the negativity that stops me from coming to visit some days or at least prevents me from wanting to read comments. We all do need to begin somewhere and establish ourselves as writers and earn what is needed to pay our bills whether we write full time or part time.
Networking certainly does help, job sites help, but it really comes down to each of us doing our own searches and making inquiries on our own behalf and proving to potential employers that we can do the job.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:01 am
A suggestion about job postings on this board: Why not turn off the comments section on those posts?
This blog has plenty of other daily posts for fostering community through comments and discussion. Badmouthing the people who advertise jobs here is like using the kitchen sink for a toilet, to put it politely. People paying higher rates see that kind of behavior and most likely think twice about advertising their jobs here as well.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:02 am
Great topic. I guess I really don’t understand what upsets people so much when they see $10 gigs. If it isn’t one for me, I just look on past it to others. I guess there is the feeling that as freelance writers we should earn more, but there were plenty of jobs in my field prior to going freelance that paid very little in my opinion. Not at all what someone in my field should have been paid. There is nothing you can do about it. There is no sense insulting people.
I personally have never been turned off by negativity on this board. I just chalk it up to the personalities of unhappy people. They are everywhere. I have high paying gigs and low. As long as it works out to be around $20 an hour for my work, I’m fine with it. So if a $10 gig would take me half an hour I might take it. This works out to be less than what I would make at a salaried job, but my higher paying gigs make up for it in the end.
I enjoy this site and it has helped me a lot with both job leads and general information on freelancing. Thanks for all you do!
July 8th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Katy,
THANK YOU so much for that posting with the link to the EFA. My professional background is in Marketing and so all my work creating sales and marketing publications and documents has been through hourly/salaried positions. Just today I was asked to give a quote on a freelance marketing project and I had no idea what to tell them. That pay scale layout on th EFA website really helped give a clear idea of what to charge.
Thanks again, and just for the record…
I LOVE FREELANCEWRITINGGIGS.COM!!
Colleen
July 8th, 2008 at 9:16 am
OH! OH! I want to complain about money!
Glad someone gave me permission.
I hate money. Who hates money with me?
Actually, I hate that it seems to hate me. Or hates staying in my wallet… one or the other.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:23 am
For me, the rate will depend on how long the work takes me. Is $10 a bad rate? Not if the article takes me 15 minutes - that’s an excellent rate. If that $10 article took me 5 days - that’s terrible, terrible pay. It all depends.
I’ve gotten burned in the past - a project I thought would take 15 minutes ended up taking several days. Nothing I can do about that - that’s my fault, not the client’s because I had the option not to take the work to begin with. So I just do the work happily and learn from it.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:26 am
@Deb: You said this “With that said, I don’t mind taking part in discussions offering guidance and helping new writers to find their worth.” I thought this is the post I was looking for to find my answers. How does a new writer find their worth? I’ve just started out and currently have one small gig going that pays alright but doesn’t ask for much either so it works out great. However, what of these jobs that ask you your rate for 400-500 words? Do I give them the rate per word or just a total? It would help me out a great deal if someone could help lead me in the right direction.
Thanks for all your help!
Nic
July 8th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Deb,
You certainly are gracious to open this up to all.
Here are some facts:
I write part time for extra money. This is not the money that my family depends on. In September, when my youngest goes to school full time, I will be expected to bring in a certain amount of money so that we can start saving for some agreed upon goals. I have had some sweet very sweet paying gigs and some lower paying gigs. It’s all been my choice as to what I’ve taken.
Two days ago, I wrote for 45 minutes. I wrote a 650 word piece on green wedding favors and two 400 word pieces on reasons to own more than one diaper bag and the essential items for a diaper bag. These were straight text - no links, no expert quotes - just stuff that I know off the top of my head because of actual life experience. For that 45 minutes, I ended up getting $32.50 in my paypal account within 24 hours of submitting the pieces. That works out to a little over $8 every 15 minutes I worked.
I don’t always get topics that allow me to work that quickly, but I frequently do. There will be people who are going to question the quality of my pieces. I admit, that’s a lot to write and proofread in 45 minutes, but when you know the subject matter by heart and are a professional, it’s possible.
Additionally, I wrote at my convenience, from the comfort of my own home, in my choice of clothing, with my own music blaring. No travel time, no travel expenses, no lunch to buy, no work clothing to buy. I was done before my kids were even up yet.
Okay, here is my opinion. How can anyone tell me I’m selling myself short? I don’t know of any other job that I could have right now where I could love what I do this much, make this kind of money, and have it fit around my family’s schedule so easily.
I don’t go for the high paying gigs (YET) because I can’t commit to them. I took a gig once where I had to interview 5 different people. It was a good paying gig, but I had to schedule the interviews around their convenience (which ended up at night right around my boys’ bed time). The interviews took about an hour each. Then I had to write it up, send it for approval, and make revisions. I can guarantee you, when all was said and done, I was not making $8 every 15 minutes.
What I would really like all of these complainers to think about is that not everyone has your situation. People get to choose what fits their life.
A year from now, I hope to be writing that I just got paid $1500 for my first piece in a glossy, but up until now, that type of commitment hasn’t been an option for me.
There is a lot more that goes into choosing a $10 gig (or even less) than the fact that it pays $10.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:35 am
@ Nicole - Let me start by wishing you the best of luck in furthering your writing career.
In answer to your question, unless otherwise stated, it is best to give a per word amount. That way you build in a little cushion for time spent researching, interviewing etc. and it doesn’t overwhelm the client. As a newbie, $0.15 - $.20 per word is about right.
July 8th, 2008 at 9:36 am
@Billy (and Deb) - Please don’t turn the comments off! It helps (saves time) when people who have been burned by certain job posters can comment.
But, I agree that it’s a business thing and we should all treat it as such. Vent somewhere else!
July 8th, 2008 at 9:54 am
A response to Katy’s question, in particular…
The rates you mention as being $40-125/hr are referring to print, no? That’s a different animal.
As someone with a print journalism background, but who is trying to now learn about earning writing income through online endeavors, I can tell it’s taken some openmindedness on my part not to let my understanding of the print world keep me away from the future that is writing for the Internet.
(The models are greatly different, considering advertising revenues, and so many more writers and so much more space — the online market is diluted when compared to print; but that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. I digress…)
One justification I have used is similar to what Deb wrote above. I often break jobs down into “how much per hour?” thinking. If I see that a job pays, seemingly, not enough, I break it down based on how much time it will take to get the job done, and then try to force myself to work efficiently to produce a reasonable balance of quality without putting more than, say, 30-60 minutes into that low-paying project. Then I can step back and say, “Well, I just made $20/hr. on that one, and that is somewhat reasonable.” Print jobs require much more time than a lot of lower-paying Internet-based gigs, and you can go through the wringer with editors for lengths of time; they understandably place much higher demands on someone when they are paying hundreds of dollars per piece.
I can also say that, having a couple of times worked on staff as a writer/editor for a newspaper, and having been paid only about $12.50/hr (then deduct all taxes, costs for benefits, etc.), that I can easily use that info in balancing the unfortunate pay of some opportunities in print and online.
It’s about perspective. Don’t let print-based pay expectations trip you up. But don’t sell yourself short, either. If a job doesn’t pay worth your while — and only you know what your while is worth — then don’t do the job.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Well, the way I see it…it is like this. I am new to this world of freelance writing and up to this point it is exactly that…”free!” I would love to get paid $8 for 500 words because then I move to the level of “professional!”
July 8th, 2008 at 10:15 am
For a writing job that’ll take 30 minutes tops, $10 is doable. I normally like to shoot for a $15-$20 range. If I get to the point where I’m making a good living and building a good reputation, then I’d raise my rate. A good friend of mine who works in graphic design charges $40 per hour.
I usually steer clear of the ads where they want several hours work for something like $10 or so. You have to ask yourself if it’s worth the time and effort.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:16 am
@Mary - keep applying, applying, applying. Once you land that first paid gig, more will come. Writing for free is okay as long as it benefits you - gives you some respectable clips to show to paying clients.
We should have a post one time here about what is beneficial writing for free and what is wasting your time. I don’t recall that one ever being covered in an actual post (in the comments it has been in bits and pieces).
Deb, next time you call for guest posters - perhaps I’ll cover that topic.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:33 am
@Robin - very true. I do a free writing gig, but in return I get CDs sometimes months in advance of their release. In fact, yesterday I opened my mailbox to find CDs for John Mellencamp, Night Ranger and Willie Nelson. All three are free to me in exchange for a review. I would have bought Mellencamp because he’s a favorite and possibly Night Ranger just to find out if they’re the same as they were in the 80s when I loved them. So that saves me more than $20 straight off!
July 8th, 2008 at 10:39 am
For those who feel frustrated about applying and getting rejected, keep these things in mind:
“Failure is the mother of success.” — Chinese proverb
Robert Pirsig’s best-selling novel “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” was rejected by more than 120 publishers before it finally found a home.
Van Halen, the rock and roll band founded by Dutch-born brothers Edward and Alex Van Halen, was turned down from their first shot at a major record deal. Gene Simmons of Kiss recorded VH’s demo and submitted it to Kiss’ label, Casablanca Records. Kiss’ manager Bill Aucoin vetoed any deal, feeling–I kid you not–that Van Halen had no potential for commercial success.
BTW, all but one of VH’s albums have went platinum while their self-titled debut album and their 1984 album have both went diamond (sold more than 10 million copies). Not bad for two boys who spoke no English when they first came to America in the sixties.
And, of course, the first few pages of Stephen King’s novel Carrie had to be rescued from the trash can. King thought it wasn’t very good, and his wife felt otherwise and encouraged him to keep writing.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:42 am
All of this discussion proves one thing, it all depends where you are financially, how much writing contributes to the family budget, and if they are enough reliable revenue streams to compensate for taking $10 gigs. That’s why this matter can never really be resolved, it all depends on the individual. So if it works for you, more power to you. If it ain’t broke, you should even consider fixing it.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:49 am
There’s a way to communicate frustration with low rates without being offensive.
But I’ll use this post to vent/comment. For some just starting out or earning beer money, some of the low rates, like the one that started this discussion, aren’t bad. Back in the late 70s, editors at the college newspaper earned $1 an hour (figured we put 40 hours in a week). But we knew we were paying our dues, and not supporting families. But our work was also that of college students.
When evaluating rates offered and charged, one has to remember as self-employed, one still has to pay the “other half” of FICA and Medicare (7.65 percent, along with the 7.65 percent one would pay as an employee, for a total of 15.3 percent), utilities (would air be on if you weren’t home? What about computers?), technology (computers, software, etc.), health and life insurance (even though those are no longer automatic as employees).
Could you make more at Starbucks? At McDonald’s? Doing your own home repair (rather than paying someone else)? While you may prefer to write than work in a restaurant, you also need to pay the bills. When I started out, I had a second job just so I could afford to have my first one as a low-paid disc jockey (drove me out of radio into print).
Always look to replace low-paying clients with high paying ones. Low paying ones may be fine to start out, but eventually, they become too “expensive,” because they keep you from taking the time to find the higher paying ones.
Also, you will find the lowest paying clients will often be the most demanding, which is why I voted for firing high-maintenance clients in the Idol competition.
July 8th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Richard,
Don’t forget Colonel Sanders, turned down hundreds of times before someone agreed to his recipe.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:07 am
@Robin - I did write once on when it might benefit one to work for free. I’ll try and find the post a little later. If you’re volunteering to write a guest post, you’re always welcome.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:07 am
I took a horrendously low-paying job at first, but now (2 years later) I don’t unless I’m desperate. Now I won’t take less than $15 per 400 words of straight content, and again, that’s when work is scarce. I look for long-term gigs with a significant monthly pay rate and reasonable amount of work. It means I only get paid monthly, but it also means I don’t have to worry where my next gig is coming from. I only have one long-term gig that pays bad right now, but keep them because they’re a name-brand client and they enhance my resume. Sometimes a client’s name is worth more than pay, although I’ve racked up about 18 months with them so I’m about to cut them loose. I don’t mind interviewing people because it usually means better paying gigs, and trade magazines are an excellent supplement to the income. I can make $500-$1000 at one and a minimum of $300 at the other.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Wow. It seems like this discussion just goes round and round again. The bottom line is that this is not a problem unique to freelance writing, it may be worse, but every job has low-ball salary offers, and you don’t see accountants or nursing aids or even cashiers complaining about their salaries in ways like this. When you complain in a very visible way (like online comments and posting) you are just proving that you are unprofessional.We work in a great profession with benefits that most other people would kill for, but nothing is perfect. If it’s not right for you, pass it by.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:41 am
I think how “low” a rate is can be completely subjective. I’m single and have no children. I live in an area of the US that has relatively low living costs. I’m also a very fast researcher and writer, so if a client wants a simple 500-word piece for a site, I can usually finish it in 15 or 20 minutes if I am familiar with the topic (that’s why I stick to topics I have a lot of knowledge in instead of taking on an assignment in any topic area). That translates into $30-40 an hour, which is a very good wage in this area.
If I were in NYC or CA, however, I’d probably really be hurting. But here, I am easily meeting my living expenses and have enough left for entertainment and other fun stuff.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:44 am
When things get tough financially for me (like they are now), I sometimes think I should just quit writing and get into another line of work. At present, I have compromised and work a part-time-ish day job while trying to freelance and get that going. I’m currently trying to get into full-time journalism. For me, the decision to stick with writing boils down to two reasons: I don’t know how to do anything else, and I don’t WANT to do anything else.
Life is far too short to spend it doing a job you absolutely hate.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:48 am
One writer asked: when is it beneficial to write for free and when is it a waste of time? For the most part writing for free comes at the beginnng of your writing career. That’s the time when you build both confidence and clips. Seing your name on a published piece can do a lot to keep you going as you struggle to start earning money. And the clips are, naturally, useful in getting those paying jobs. Once you start getting paying jobs, working for free is a waste of time. Then you’re stuck in the rut of only seeing your name in print. That might be nice to mention at social occasions, but it’s a dead end path. When you’re established you can write for free for your favorite charity once in a while, or whatever. That’s a personal thing. Even lawyers do pro bono work. But as writers here have mentioned, your work is valuable. Giving it away, lessens that value, and it lessens it for everyone else.
July 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Deb, why not simply turn off the commenting for job posts? In your WP, if you scroll down below the Write Post page, there’s an option to turn off comments for specific posts.
Instead of continually trying to plead with the community to play nice (you’ve done this a few times; it isn’t working if you have to repeat it), just stop offering that commenting capacity.
The job would be up and posted, and those who want to apply could. No comments, no nastiness, no stupidity. The advertisers would feel more comfortable and you would too.
Makes sense, no?
July 8th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Interesting that some (although thankfully few) writers are supporting bans and censorship!
(especially when the truths about freelance writing rates are being discussed)
Deb - Just wondering though, the minimum rate is $10 - $10 for how many words?
Also - it may be a good idea to designate the job as a low paying one … as other sites do. This way you can avoid the discussion.
Or as James said, you can turn off the commenting for posts on the job ads. As we live in areas where free speech is permitted, people will always give their opinions on matters. (whether or not people think they’re opinions are “nice” is a purely subjective matter).
July 8th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
@James - Actually Jodee and I have been discussing this very thing. I wanted to do it yesterday but Jodee is kinder and gentler and doesn’t believe in the tough love stuff. I think we’re going to have to go that way though. I mean, even after I begged people yesterday and today, even after I gave them a special post to have a rates free for all, they still went back to insult the client. If I go to your house and you tell me it bothers you that I don’t use a coaster, I’d use a coaster. So how come when people come to this house they don’t respect our wishes? Don’t get it.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Kate - The only accountants and nurses I know are very well paid. As for cashiers, I did work as a cashier when I was a teenager. In other words, I do not think the skill set required of a cashier is comparable to that of a writer.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
@Scribette - Just $10. Usually $10 per hour. Each individual writer know whether or not it’s worth it for him - if not he’ll figure it out soon enough.
Yes I could close off commenting which is a shame or designate it as low paying which the client won’t like, or people can refrain from being so negative like Jodee and I repeatedly ask.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Deb - I think the reason is that what you may think is ‘not nice’ may be defined as ‘expressing an opinion’ to someone else.
I think you should turn off the comments if you do not want people commenting on that topic. Makes sense!
July 8th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
@Scribette - I don’t think they’re necessarily supporting bans and censorship as much as they’re hoping to get their peaceful community back.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Weeeelll, everyone gets a second chance. I think we’re at four or five now. Also consider that posts that say, “Please stop being nasty” end up hurting your blog’s credibility more than hurting people’s feelings.
Tough love is when you’ve exhausted all options. I think you’ve done that.
Be guilt free!
July 8th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Deb - ok thanks!
I realize that the client may not like it … but that is the truth right? (I think it is important to let the beginner writers know this fact - many of these writers have posted that they are often discouraged by the low pay rates they see).
July 8th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Scribette - I have no problems with people expressing an opinion. However, someone telling us the problem with our blog is that we post jobs that ar a joke is “not nice”..and this in a client’s post. All of the “no offense but…” posts are usually offensive. Maybe not to you, but to Jodee and I who work hard to keep this community as pleasant as possible. I made one request - in clients posts refrain from negativity - and yes people do express negative opinoons. It’s like I tell my teenaged nephew, just because you’re being honest doesn’t mean you’re not being rude. You can express an opinion in a a tactful, positive, pleasant manner even if you disagree.
Have at it here or in the daily lists or article posts. Refrain from negativity directed at the client posts. Why is this so difficult?
July 8th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Deb - A peaceful community that only supports one opinion? Doesn’t sound too constructive to me …
July 8th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Deb - Hmmm I think you did use the phrase “no offense” as well.
(I could be wrong though)lol
Maybe someone should not say that the pay rate is a “joke”, but a person saying that a pay rate is low paying - when it is low paying - is the truth.
I guess as the phrase goes … “The truth hurts sometimes” may be true in this case.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Scribette - You’re missing the point. You are absolutely allowed to discuss rates here. You are absolutely allowed to educate and inspire. Go ahead teach the newbies and say certain jobs suck - just please don’t do it in a client post. That’s all. It’s really not too difficult to grasp.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
Deb - ok can you please turn off the comment section on these posts then? I feel too compelled to ‘comment’ when I see these ads … I cant help myself … it’s a disease almost. LOL
Also - other writers who just stumble upon your site may also comment as they are not familiar with your request.
That said, I “know” that you are not spotlighting these jobs, but other new writers may get the impression that you are … since they are “stand alone” job ads. It does look like/give the impression that you are endorsing those pay rates … although “I realize” that you are just listing the ads.
Just thought that I would add that last tidbit … while we are discussing it!
July 8th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Don’t take the bait Deb. It’s not worth it. Most of support you and respect your wishes. The few who don’t will never get it. It’s not worth the argument. Don’t take the bait.
July 8th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
@ Deb: “Jodee is kinder and gentler and doesn’t believe in the tough love stuff.” Don’t let that get out….
July 8th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
From a veteran freelance writer:
Ask yourself these questions. What am I worth? (There are a lot of writers’ reference books on the market and writers’ groups that have established minimum to maximum rates to help you determine that and it’s a talking point with your client).
Am I setting my rate out of fear? (”I am unworthy”)
What will your client derive financially from the service you provide and do you believe you’re getting a fair share of it as a percentage of your involvement in the project?
Gas costs more than $4 a gallon. Health insurance for the self-employed costs a hundred times that much each month (depending on the plan). Know your expenses. Set your rates accordingly.
BTW, just a few weeks ago, 100 newspaper reporters were laid off from their jobs. That’s just in one week. Competition will become more stiff.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
@Phil: I wonder how many of us actually consider insurance costs when we consider our pay. I know that I don’t because my spouse has benefits. Though it’s terribly expensive, he has a chronic medical condition, and we can’t get coverage independently (through me). So, I don’t have that to factor in, and I’d imagine many here don’t either.
One thing I do account for, though, is the cost of childcare. My children go part-time so that I can focus more, so I have to consider that cost as well when I’m deciding where to apply.
I think in general there’s a difference in cost of living. Many of us (and I’ve done it, too) are quick to say “outside the US.” It’s not just outside the US. The average income for a family of 4 where I live is $30,000 a year, and those people live frugally, but fairly comfortably. They definitely have the basics covered. That averages around $15 an hour, so if one partner is making $10 an hour writing, that actually gives them a chance to make more than the average for something that someone in Atlanta or Denver or New York wouldn’t consider.
I take courses online, and one woman repeatedly says (though I do suspect she’s lying) that their entry-level call center reps make $35/hour. To me that’s overrated for something that is unskilled labor. (I worked in a call center in college, so I know it doesn’t require much training.) For her, that’s average, and those people aren’t making a good living. So again it’s all about perspective.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Brandi,
The reason I mention benefits is that I provide 80% of the family’s income (used to be more), so I have to cover those.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
People keep asking how to get better paying jobs. I’ve been freelancing as both a writer and editor for 20 years, and for what it is worth, this is what I have learned and what has worked for me.
First, understand that print and Web are different animals. A lot of the low-paying Web ads want short (300-400 word) articles that require no research and no interviewing or expert quotes. People who write these say that they can dash them off the top of their head in fractions of an hour and thus the low rate may work out to an acceptable hourly rate to the writer. However, in my experience, this type of quick, causal article rarely works as a clip to take you to a higher paying job.
People who are paying $40 per hour or .50 per word want evidence that you can research and interview as well as write. They also want excellent writing mechanics and a good sense of the language which are often secondary in SEO articles. Editors and clients trained in traditional journalism (and many are), especially those from the time when print journalism was ascendant, often are wary of Web clips that don’t show any of the hallmarks of traditional journalism (e.g., quoted sources, background research, balanced reportage). Think of it this way. Just because you have raised cats for years doesn’t mean that you can train tigers. Yes, you have some basic understanding of feline behavior, but you haven’t demonstrated any tiger expertise, so why should you be hired to train tigers?
So far as I can tell, the only way around this is to either take some lower paying Web jobs that will allow you to demonstrate more traditional journalistic skills or do some writing for your local paper or other print publication that will do the same.
Another point. When I started out, I wrote anything and everything from restaurant reviews to business stories to parenting advice. I quickly found that to make a reasonable income, I had to specialize. This cut down on the research time and allowed me to develop a pool of experts to interview that I could rely on for a couple of good quotes. I started out specializing in toys and the toy industry and then moved on to other areas once I had established myself with a particular client/editor.
If you are going to specialize, it helps to have some educational background or professional experience in the area of specialization, but you don’t have to (I simply fell into writing toy reviews and toy-related articles without any background in the industry). The best paying jobs, however, almost always require a certain level of expertise. You have to speak the language of the industry or area that you are writing about whether it is fashion, medicine, or bicycle racing. If you can get a foot in the door at a trade magazine, this will help establish your credibility in the field. If there is a professional organization for writers in your area of specialization, find it and join it, even if it costs money. There are organizations for all kinds of science writers, writers who cover religion, sports writers, etc. Many of these have job boards accessible only to members where the best-paying jobs are found. Dues are deductible as a professional expense on your taxes in the U.S.
Be open to writing for corporate clients because that is where the money is. Sometimes the topics are dull, dull, dull. You can make a lot of money writing about packaging machinery, but it doesn’t make good party conversation. Sometimes times you won’t get a byline (e.g., writing for some corporate newsletters). Sometimes only a handful of people will read what you write. Corporate writing will not make you a media rock star, but it will pay the bills. Hint: You can market your writing directly to small companies, but it is much more difficult to market yourself to an Intel or a Proctor & Gamble. After you have some small company corporate writing experience, try marketing yourself to the public relations/media communication companies that work with many of the big companies. Often these media communications companies are the ones putting out newsletters for medium-sized and some large companies.
Make things easy for the client/editor. MEET DEADLINES. I have picked up any number of assignments from parenting publications that were assigned to a new writer who didn’t meet the deadline, so the story was passed to me because the editor knew my word was good and the story would be done on time and to specification. Likewise FOLLOW DIRECTIONS. If you find you are straying from the topic, it can’t be covered in the word length assigned, or there isn’t enough story there to justify the length the editor wants, COMMUNICATE. This is one time when it is good to pick up the phone and talk to the editor instead of using e-mail, because it gives you both a chance to bat around ideas and compromises and feel comfortable that you both understand the situation and how it will be resolved.
There are other things you can do to make things easy for the editor/client. Some are as simple as following good manuscript rules (spacing, fonts, format). It may be something like writing a catchy title for the article, inserting subheads, suggesting a source for a photograph, or offering to do a sidebar if it would enhance the story.
If you are submitting photos, do it in the form requested and write cut lines for the photos. (Cut lines are a full sentence that runs under the photo and helps explain it. They are longer than a caption.) Always obsessively proofread your finished product and check for grammar and punctuation errors. This should be obvious, but you would be amazed at what some writers submit, assuming the editor’s job is to fix it up. If two writers are of equal ability, the editor will always choose the one who makes his or her life easier.
Network. If you have a story accepted, pitch another when you send the completed assignment. Let the editor know your areas of expertise/interest if they are different from the area you have written about. If an editor mentions that he or she is changing jobs, ask them to refer you to their replacement and to keep you in mind at their new job. After you have developed a good relationship with an editor and successfully worked with them for a while (4 or 5 assignments), it is okay to ask them to pass your name and contact information to other editors they might know who could use a freelancer with your talents/experience/interests.
It takes time to build up professional contacts in any field, including freelancing. As in any other field, the more you are paid, the more expertise the job requires and often the level of detail work is higher (e.g., confirming information with independent sources). For every well-paying assignment you get where you know exactly where to find the information you need and that just flows quickly out of your brain and onto the screen, you will get another that looks easy and ends up being hard, complicated, and time consuming. You cannot cherry pick the quick and easy jobs, but some of the hard ones will help you move forward.
If you consistently want higher paying work, you have to accept that professional freelancing is a job, not a hobby. There will be good days and bad days, just as there are in any job. Some days you won’t want to write, but you will do your very best anyway. It takes time and effort to develop skills, a commitment to learning the market and how to sell yourself, professionalism in meeting client needs, and a willingness to work when you don’t want to on topics that don’t always get you excited. And truthfully, just as every high school baseball player doesn’t make it to the majors or every mail room clerk isn’t going to become a CEO, every freelancer isn’t going to get assigned the $10,000 celebrity interview for Vanity Fair.
Some of the people who post here are chronically unhappy with the pay being offered and can’t seem to just ignore the job postings with rates too low for them. I suggest that these people take a good, honest look at what they want from freelancing and how much time and effort they want to put into it. People have different writing goals. Some people want off-the-top-of-the head writing work, some quick extra money, or byline they can show their friends. Others want a full time career and a living-wage income. Only you can decide what your goals are and if they are realistic at this time.
If a job posting doesn’t meet your goals or fit into your career strategy or looks boring, sketchy, spammy, too time-consuming, or in some other way is unacceptable to you, just pass it by. Although this board is a wonderful resource, there are other ways to find freelance jobs and people who want careers as freelancers will need to use all of them to move on up the freelance food chain, because, just like any job, unless you are the big boss’s child, you don’t get to start at the top.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
@ Deb
You are so concerned about not posting anything you perceive as negative on the to the individual client posts, I have to ask: Are these clients paying you to list their job posts individually? I know you say you are not spotlighting them, but it really does look like you are - kind of similar to Web sites paying to be listed at the top of searches. It’s okay if they are paying you. I understand you are running a business, but I’d like a little more clarity/transparency about this.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Tish gives some very sound advice. I actually applied for a job writing for my local paper. Know what the starting rate was, how about a whopping $8.25 an hour.
I make more writing at home than I would working for the area newspaper and I’m not having to drive 30 miles each way to get to their offices. That’s a gallon of gas each way just to get to work (no public transportation around here, so don’t even try suggesting it), so by the end of it, one hour of every work day would go just to paying for gas for my car. Add in needing new clothes, added mileage on my car, parking fees in the city, and time away from my family, it’s just not worthwhile.
That’s why I’m perfectly happy taking jobs that average $10 to $20 an hour when you calculate the time it takes writing and researching. I have one that pays $60 an hour and two others that pay $10 an hour. I’m here with my kids, my teen neighbor’s infant some of the time, and they all know that if a problem arises, I’m right here for them without question.
I know insurance was also mentioned. That’s one area where I’m lucky. My husband’s employer is unionized, so we do have one of the best health insurance policies in the state and at $30 a week, we couldn’t do better. So that’s not something I need worry about.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Tish - good advice!
I guess I was commenting about the lower paying jobs because I wanted the beginner writers to realize that there was more to freelance writing than the ‘lower paying writing jobs’.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
@Tish - No one pays me to post anything here. All money earned from this blog is advertising revenue only. However, when clients come away from here with a negative experience it doesn’t encourage them to post jobs with us again. Moreover, if a potential client seems someone getting ganged up on he may stay far away - even if his job pays lots of money. Maybe the members of this community will find that job on another board, maybe the won’t. It’s nice for us to be able to offer an exclusive.
The reason these jobs look like they’re spotlighted is because they’re not part of the usual “job troll”. Jodee trolls all the job boards each morning and posts lists of links to jobs fitting our criteria. The standalone posts are from people who send their jobs via email and we post them as we get them. We’re not going to say “this job is a low payer” because we feel that sheds the employer in a negative light.
Someone suggested we just add them to the links, but as they are emails, we can’t do this. Besides, we want to encourage people to give us the exclusive.
July 8th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Deb - yes I do realize that they are not exclusive jobs … but that doesnt take away from the fact that they do “look” like exclusive jobs.
Perhaps a statement along the lines saying that you are just posting the ad … and not endorsing the job at the bottom of the job post will clear things up for the ‘newbie’ and other writers?
(well … written more eloquently than that perhaps though … LOL)
Just a suggestion …
I do like your blog by the way - otherwise, I would not take the time to comment.
But back to work I go …
July 8th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
I think I meant to say ’spotlighted’ jobs …
July 8th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
This is it - my lunch hour is over.
I’m not writing anything on any person’s job ad. If we didn’t approve of or endorse the ad it wouldn’t be on the blog.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Ok Deb! Thanks for the quick response …
Then honestly it does look like you are endorsing low pay rates …
Oh well! Off I go …
July 8th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
I’m going to re-post what Maria said, since it’s the best piece of advice I’ve heard yet.
“All of this discussion proves one thing, it all depends where you are financially, how much writing contributes to the family budget, and if they are enough reliable revenue streams to compensate for taking $10 gigs. That’s why this matter can never really be resolved, it all depends on the individual. So if it works for you, more power to you.”
July 8th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Here’s what I’ve learned about rates lately: I used to think there was nothing more irritating than reading a job ad that asked for a 500 word article for ten dollars. I was wrong - it’s not nearly as annoying as reading an extended discussion where people keep complaining about the ten dollar job.
By the way, I don’t understand people who bring up ‘free speech’ with respect to the question of banning people, closing comments or deleting posts. This is not a public place - it’s Deb’s place, because she pays the rent and could shut it down at any time. If I went to her house and insulted her mom and her cooking, I’d be dis-invited. She has every right to do that, there or on her blog.
July 8th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Deb doesn’t endorse low rates. Deb endorses freedom of choice and respect for other people’s choices.
And that, I support. 100%.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Deb,
Do you keep up with the people who make the negative comments? I think that’s one point that has been made here, though not directly. (I think it’s one of the subtler point’s of Scribette’s comments, for example.) Yesterday, Therese was the person who called the job a “joke.” I don’t remember seeing her here before. (She may be; I just don’t recall her name on the comments section before.) I think part of the point is that when the jobs are just posted and not noted “I received a request by email to post this ad” or something explaining, then it opens the doors for people who may just be stopping by but aren’t regulars to post negative comments beccause they confuse the individual listing with your approval or endorsement.
If the same person repeatedly makes negative comments, then banning that person may make sense (though really, how hard is it to continue to post anonymously?). It’s just that I think there’s some discrepancy between what’s clear for those of us who visit everyday and those who drop by and don’t know “the rules.” Perhaps there’s a way to make that clear - with a standard paragraph at the end of the ads reminding posters not to make negative comments about the job or some headline announcement.
@Phil: Yeah, I knew you provided most of your family’s income. I just think insurance is another place where the price we’re willing to work for matters. We pay ~$8K a year for insurance through my husband’s employer, so if I had to make an additional $8K a year, then I’d up my bottom line or work more hours to make up for it.
July 8th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
@Brandi - I do keep up with some people. In fact some of the people who make negative comments here aren’t newbies but like to use different ideintities. I do know more about some of these people than they think I do, but whatever. If they have to hide behind dual identities and phony IPs so be it. Regardless of whether or not people are just stopping by, they can still use good manners. I don’t know if anyone can ever really be banned. I’m not really into doing that, though it does seem as if certain people provoke us through email or comments.
July 8th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Brandi - I totally agree …
“It’s just that I think there’s some discrepancy between what’s clear for those of us who visit everyday and those who drop by and don’t know “the rules.” Perhaps there’s a way to make that clear - with a standard paragraph at the end of the ads reminding posters not to make negative comments about the job or some headline announcement.”
July 8th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Well I agree that there should be some statement about the job postings …
They do “appear” to be spotlighted job ads to the casual visitor.
However, Deb mentioned that she didnt want to write anything on the job ads.
Oh well! I personally think that it makes sense … but its not our site. LOL
Have a good day!
July 8th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Good grief Scribette. Do you really need a paragraph on the bottom of a post to tell you to show good manners? Here’s a clue: you visit someone’s blog you practice common courtesy. The rest of the world seems to know it, why is it so difficult for you?
Go ahead Jodee. Delete my post but really. Scribette’s wearing my last nerve. Pick, pick, pick…
July 8th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
That sound you hear is of thunderous applause
July 8th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Totally. I agree 100% Melissa.
I will never understand why some people feel they need to dictate to everyone else what acceptable rates are.
July 8th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
No … not good manners … that is why I made the second post. Please refer to that one.
Sorry that a difference of opinion is wearing so much on your nerves Melissa.
July 8th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
For crying out loud, all Deb is doing is asking for some respect for her blog.
My suggestion is to first only block those people who are commenting and causing all the trouble. If that doesn’t work, just block comments for the jobs that are listed alone (outside of the daily lists by Jodee).
As far as the “a peaceful community with only one opinion..” comment, are you kidding? This blog isn’t a political manifesto, it’s a free service for writers.
July 8th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
@Deb - It must be going around, as tomorrow’s post over at our blog is also about money and encouraging people to talk about it.
I think it’s pretty disrespectful for people to complain about your advertisers right here on the blog, and you have every right to ask them to cut it out, already!
July 9th, 2008 at 5:29 am
I’ve got a little different perspective than some of the more established freelancers here, simply because I’ve NEVER worked in a print environment for pay. (I’ve helped friends out with editing a story as a second pass editor, but I’ve never actually made money writing for a print publication.)
What that means is that for the last 7-10 years, I’ve been writing online, and on electronic copies (software, games, etc.) for pay. And what can I say? For most online writing jobs you’ll find posted, the pay is going to be between $10-20 per 500 words. Period. With an entire world of English speaking writers to draw from, people can get away with paying much less than they would our print counterparts.
That doesn’t mean high-paying online clients don’t exist, because I’ve worked regularly with some who pay upwards of $50 per 500 word article. But to get those going, you need to have quite a library of previous work to show. For all of my higher-paying clients, I also met them offline at conventions, trade shows, and even at job fairs.
So if you want to write online, ignore the average freelance salary you see listed on sites. Most importantly, don’t get down when you’re starting out and only making 2 cents a word, because a week or month later, you’ll have enough work to show (hopefully) that you can start increasing your price and bidding on higher paying gigs.
Basically, don’t try to climb the stairs three steps at a time just because you want to reach the top faster.
July 9th, 2008 at 7:39 am
I think $10 is ok for a ´quickie.´ If I can earn 10 dollars from maybe 30 minutes work, writing in my own voice, on a subject that interests me, I’m happy to do it. I have a part time job in a bar, and I get paid minimum wage, so 10 dollars for 30 mins doing something I love is much better. I also have quite a strict ´training schedule´ for my writing, and taking the cheap pay means that I can challenge myself to write in a new way, for a new market, on a new subject etc and still at least get compensation and a clip for the practice. I am also happy to write for $10 if the article gets me good exposure for any of my websites.
July 9th, 2008 at 7:50 am
I think freelance rates are subjective, that’s why I’ll never tell someone what he should charge. It’s all up to the individual writer to decide what his time his worth. Individual gigs warrant different prices. For instance, I can do a ten minutes blog post for $10, that’s great money. Maybe another ten minutes to edit and tweak - but still $10 for 20 minutes work isn’t bad.
For something requiring research, interviews, etc. I would charge my hourly rate. This started out a lot lower than it is now. (Though I’m not really freelancing now so that doesn’t matter.)
The bottom line to me is to charge what you feel comfortable with. No one else knows your situation. We don’t know your finances, we don’t know what it will take to complete your project and we don’t know what makes you happy. We don’t know if you’re trying to make a living, just want some fun money or if this is a hobby.
When quoting a rate (or figuring out whether or not to accept a particular rate) first work out what the gig will entail. Figure in research, bank or paypal fees, gas if you’ll need to drive around to research or interview and the amount of time it will take to write and tweak until you have a finished product. Also, research the client. What do you feel his budget will allow? From there figure out what your time - and this project is worth. Not what other people tell you your time is worth - but what YOU feel your time is worth.
Be happy. That’s what it’s about.
July 9th, 2008 at 9:55 am
I didn’t want to post this on the Writing Bloc’s job link since Deb & Jodee asked us not to comment negatively there. I signed up with them and, while I am impressed with their system and communication, I received a project today that was priced so low it made my head spin.
The posted project was a press release. I figured it would be priced low - maybe $75 or $50 as opposed to several hundred. My eyes practically fell out when I saw the actual compensation - $16. To add insult to injury, the client wanted to be “blown away” and IF s/he’s blown away, then more press releases will be ordered.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I couldn’t learn enough about a company’s products/services, mission, vision, values, and angle quite fast enough to make $16 worth it for a press release. It would probably take hours to complete. The only way I can see this being worth it is if you just throw something together and the client doesn’t know enough about publicity to notice, but that’s not the kind of work I want to do.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:26 am
As someone who stumbled across this site a few weeks ago (brilliant by the way! Kudos to the maintainers), when I saw the stand-alone job postings, I never thought that they were ’special’ - in the sense that they were being championed by anyone & thus standing separately from the other postings.
Am I being too passive in thinking that this is a wonderful place to come & see a gathering of writing gigs? If you don’t like what you see, move on. Find gigs you DO like. No one but you holds the reins of your life choices.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:43 am
Leigh - yes that is exactly what surprised … no shocked me - under $20 for a press release is incomprehensible to me.
Just wanted to say also that low rates are fine when you are just starting out. (I paid my dues too - at $10 an hour I believe). That said, you deserve more money when you have more experience.
Employers need your services and they benefit financially from your talent. Don’t underestimate or undersell yourself is my point. There are places even online that do pay much more than $10-20 for 500 words.
You can and will demand more $ when you change your mindset. I realize that some of you need the $ now - as Phil said though, you should continually work on replacing low paying gigs with higher paying ones - makes sense! And in the end … who benefits? You do!
July 9th, 2008 at 10:45 am
Allison - ok glad you didnt! Many people were thinking that they were spotlighted jobs on the blog from the comments that I read.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:46 am
@ Allison: Your comment makes perfect sense to me, but not everyone agrees.
I came across an ad this morning from someone wanting a writer to “trade” their services for a service from the client. If there is a mutual benefit, then I don’t have a problem with this kind of arrangement but what works the best for me is to “trade” my work for the client’s cash.
July 9th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Jodee - I am just trying to help writers realize that they can make more money if they do have the experience.
July 9th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
OK Guys,
Deb gave me the Red Button and instructions on when to use it. This is one of those times. You were told that no personal attacks were allowed and they are not. I’ve removed a few comments that were offensive and I will do so again if need be.
If anyone feels the need to vent and isn’t sure whether it should be for public consumption, take it to e-mail. I read all of them and your comments will be confidential. freelancewritinggigs@gmail.com
Please keep it civil. Thank you.