The amount of mail we receive on a regular basis is staggering. This is a good thing as it means you trust us to give you good advice. Lately, the bulk of our mail is coming from brand new freelance writers asking where to find work. In addition to the freelance writing job leads offered here on a daily basis, there are plenty of places that are looking for writers – and willing to pay for your services! Many of these places are open to brand new writers, as long as you can write well and know the subject matter.
Keeping with FWJ’s guidelines for posting jobs, there shouldn’t be anything here paying under $10 per post or article, and there are plenty of places on this list that pay more. Keep in mind that most of these websites aren’t advertising for writers to fulfill regular “jobs” . For these, freelancers are expected to pitch, query and submit ideas for articles. Before blindly querying or submitting an article on spec, please take some time to get to know the website, magazine or client to ensure you’re a good fit.
50 Places that Hire Freelance Writers
- Demand Studios - Popular website content mill with a reputable reputation. Pays $15 for accepted articles. Choose article titles from a database and submit them for acceptance. Many writers report of having to rewrite articles several times before it’s accepted.
- LoveToKnow -Pays $20 – $25 per article, LoveToKnow is a wiki-based content site looking for various subject matter experts. Training period required for approved writers and all writers are paid for training, even if they’re not accepted.
- About.com – Pays $675 monthly flat fee plus traffic bonuses. About.com is often looking for subject matter experts. A training period is required, approved writers must two weeks of extensive writing and website building to audition. Writers are not paid for this audition, so if you don’t get the gig, you’re kind of screwed. Many who didn’t make the cut used the content to start their own websites.
- Looking for Clues – Content site. Pays $10 – $25 per accepted article.
- Mahalo - Looking for freelance writers to help build search results pages. Pays $10 per page.
- Copy Desk - Not sure of exact pay, however they’re accepting writes for various client projects.
- SoftwareJudge.com - Pays up to $50 for honest software reviews.
- Renegade Professional Careers:
- Text Broker – Ranges from low to not as low paying ($3 – $25), Text Brokers hires content writers to write for various clients.
- Dollar Stretcher - Pays .10 per word for articles regarding frugality, simplicity and saving money.
- eCopywriters – Hires writes to assist various copywriting clients from around the world.
- Content Gurus - Hires writers to create content for various clients.
- Developer Tutorials – Pays $50 – $100 per developer tutorial.
- Site Point - Pays for accepted articles of interest to the Site Point community.
- The Forward – The Jewish Daily Forward accepts articles and even pays a kill fee if assigned articles don’t make the cut.
- Wisegeek.com – Web content mill. Pays $10 per accepted article.
- SQL-Server Performance – Pays $25 – $200 for original articles.
- Worldstart.com – Pays $35 – $65 for computer tips and techniques.
- Python Magazine – Pays for articles of interest to Python enthusiasts.
- .SQL Server Central – Pays $25 for articles of interest to the SQL community.
- Developer Shed - Payment varies. Check guidelines for full details.
- Auction Bytes – Pays $20 for stories and articles of interest to those who want to learn more about auctions, collectibles, appraisals and more.
- San Diego Restaurants Online - Pays up to $40 for reviews.
- DropZone.com - Pays for articles about Skydiving.
- Simple Talk -Accepts articles of interest to IT professionals and businesses.
- Learning Through History – History for homeschoolers. Looks for specific topics each month.
- Biblio Buffet - $10 – $20 for book reviews, personal essays and more.
- GAJ-IT - Articles for gadget lovers and geeks.
- Book Editing Associates - Looking for experienced book editors for editing, proofreading and fact checking. Though pay isn’t specified it appears to be a paying market and they’re serious when they say they want experienced “fiction specialists.” Potential editors will be tested.
- Blue Mountain Arts – Always accepting greeting card poetry. Pays $50 – $300 per.
- Career Pro Plus – Looking for resume and other career type writers. They contract work from the government and though I couldn’t find payment details I’m told they “pay well”. There is a training period involved.
- Funds for Writers - Pays $40 for original articles, $15 for reprints.
- The Funny Times – Pays $60 for funny stories – but they really have to be funny.
- The Town Drunk – Accepts funny stuff. Pays $35 per article.
- Travel Wise - Pays 25 Canadian dollars.
- Comstock Cards - Adult-oriented greeting card line, pays $50 – $100 per idea.
- Oatmeal Studios - Accepts greeting card ideas, pays $75 per accepted card.
- Ephemera Greeting Cards - Pays $50 per accepted slogan.
- Metro Parent - Pays $35 for reprints and up to $350 for articles. Read submission guidelines for full details.
- LosAngelesRestaurantReviews.com – Pays up to $40 for approved reviews. Before you run out and rate your local Denny’s, read the writers guidelines. They have standards.
- ISHN - Looking for specific types of safety articles.
- The Mad Penguin – Pays $30 for approved software/distribution reviews.
- Microsoft Tech Net – Accepts articles that help IT professionals. If you work for Bill Gates however, you can’t receive payment for your work.
- SAPCookbook.com – Accepts articles of interest to the IT community.
- Eclipse Zone - Offers “modest renumeration” (whatever that is). Writing is very community-centric so if you’re not a member of the Eclipse community, you’re probably not qualified to write for them.
- datanase.dev.co.uk - Accepts articles regarding database solutions. Pays $30 – $50 per article.
- HacknMod - DIY hacks are paid $10 to $40 per post depending on how much they’re feeling the love.
- Trazzler - If you land a freelance gig with Trazzler, you can be paid $1000 per month for part time work.
- Creative Weblogging – Blog Network paying between $8 and $11 for post plus monthly bonuses.
- Freelance Writing Jobs – Yes, we’re now accepting a few submissions from freelance writers per month. We don’t pay much, I’m sorry to say, only $10 per guest blog post. We’re mostly looking for business tips for writers, tips for negotiating contracts and higher paying work, tax tips, tips for landing and keeping clients, and tips on landing those first time freelance writing jobs. If you have an idea you feel would be a good fit for the freelance writing jobs network, contact me at wegetletters(at)gmail(dot)com with your article pitch. While I’m open to hiring new writers, I’m really interested in writers who are experienced enough to offer tips to other freelance writers.
these are seriously SAD places to work for professional writers, no one expects other professionals to work for third world wages… pathetic…
and who can possibly LIVE (never mind THRIVE) on $10-50 per article, you’d have to write 20 articles a day and hope and pray that the articles were accepted and paid upon acceptance !!!!
can you please list SERIOUS markets…
@Celia – So sorry these markets aren’t to your liking. I did list a few high payers. I do look for higher paying markets and add them to the job leads when I have them. However, if you know of better places, do feel free to share. Thanks for stopping by and commenting and have a wonderful evening.
I wouldn’t suggest Content Gurus to writers who want to make more than $100 a month. When I worked for them, I made nearly $500 one month and then they kept having “unknown issues” with that particular payment. Once I started logging complaints about not getting paid, I was not paid for the rest of my work. Just a heads up.
Just a note on Byline – from the site’s front page: “The owners of ByLine Magazine are currently experiencing personal problems that make it impossible for it to continue publication at this time. We are therefore suspending our print publication until further notice and are no longer accepting submissions.”
Deb,
Thanks for the list. There are places on here that I have not yet found during my internet travels:)
@Lorie – Don’t know why I didn’t see the note on Byline,but thanks for letting us know. I replaced it with another market.
I think this is a GREAT list! Thanks! I’m always looking for resources like this to point out to beginning writers and freelancers. This is just what I’ve been looking for!
Thanks again!
Thank you for all the work you do Deb. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate and use all the information you find on a daily basis.
I have been reading your blog since 2005–I am happy to see how much it has grown in the past few years.
I don’t believe any of the entries could (or should) be considered “core” writing opportunities. However, many writers are finding some clients dropping due to the economy. In those cases, these peripheral writing gigs could help. As always, these gigs not viewed as practical for experienced full-time writers may be well suited to part-timers just starting out. Just as we rail against publishers using a broad brush to paint all writers, we must avoid doing the same here.
Excellent list. I found a lot of new potentials! Thank you
For those who think this list is “pathetic”, perhaps you should start your own blog and post your superior markets.
I think there is a big misunderstanding among writers who think web writing is the same as print. A print article may have many hours of research and be paid at a higher rate. Most web articles are short and, if you do it right, don’t require tons of in-depth research.
You can make a very good living with $25 articles, and many people do remarkably well. I support a family of six quite well. One day I’ll seek out higher paying clients, but for now my “pathetic” clients are allowing us to buy a four bedroom home on 40 acres. Not too shabby if you ask me.
That’s a nice list Deb. It must have taken a lot of time to compile it and was nice of you to provide.
For those of you who complained, if you need a mommy to go out and find jobs for you, you don’t get the right to then complain about the jobs she finds.
I think the “pathetic” remark was a bit over-the-top. It becomes a personal decision whether a writer wishes to take many lower-paying gigs or fewer higher-paying ones. The end result is the same. Judging a person’s decision either way is wrong. A core tenant of freelancing has always been to empower people to make their own decisions.
Another way of considering this debate is as a teacher. Do we not teach children how to speak, knowing they will use that information to spout four-letter words — or back-talk their parents? Of course not. The same goes for writing. Should FWG not publish low-rung, easily obtainable starter jobs simply because they might apply?
To the gal who said this list is pathetic, maybe you have not tried any of these places. I started with print work and while the per piece rate was high, ($200-$800 an article) my hourly rate was almost the same with some of these web articles. For instance, at Demand I write (3) $15 articles per hour in my field, which is medical. I end up with $45 an hour. While that may seem like third world wages to some, it’s fine for me. It’s all relative. But what is a little pathetic, is your need to come here and criticize someone else’s blog because it does not meet your elites world.
I have been writing for Demand Studios for the last few months, and while it isn’t going to make me rich, it has been pulling in a few hundred extra dollars a week. Since my primary job is teaching, I write part time for extra spending money. One day I may write full time, but for now, jobs like Demand Studios work out quite well.
Oh and one more thing- as far as rewrites are concerned, I think it depends on which editor chooses your article. Some are more strict than others, with a few being quite ridiculous. However, as I have become more comfortable with the style of articles, I receive fewer rewrites. And most of the rewrites I have received only require minor touch-ups.
Deb, Thank you for the list, and the work you put into creating it for us. I have been following this blog for some time and I always find it helpful.
This is awesome. Exactly what I’ve been searching for the past few weeks. I had taken to typing in “content mills” into Google, looking for a list like this, and I kept bookmarking blogs but you finally published the super list. Thank you so much for all your hard work.
Wow…I’m just finding out for the first time that I am not a “serious writer.” What a discouraging thought. I mean, apparently, by searching this list, and considering some of them to apply to, I am not a “serious writer.” While it is true that I am new to the field of writing directly for pay, I am hardly a newbie writer. In fact, I have yet to land my first freelance writing gig, but not for lack of trying. It is obvious to me from the popularity of this site, and other similar sites, such as Ann’s and Jenn’s blogs, among others, that there is a higher supply than demand among writers. This fact makes it even more important that these blogs are publishing lists of quality job posts for those of us who are trying to get our foot in the door. There is certainly no shortage of work out there, but some of it is truly not worth the trouble. I for one am grateful that someone has taken the time to post a list of quality freelance writing jobs for us “newbies.”
well, Deb, I do thank you for the time invested, but unless you live at home, are subsidized and/or are an unpublished writer, I do not see any lucrative jobs/income on this list. After 30 years of being a reporter/editor, I deserve to make more than less than minimum wage for my work… it’s that simple…
If you have 30 years’ experience and are published, you shouldn’t need someone else to find jobs for you.
I’m a little confused as to why a reporter/editor with 30 years of experience is looking here for work. That makes 0 sense to me.
Thanks for the list, Deb! I think it is worth noting, for those of us not in the US, that several of these sites don’t accept non-US writers, including Demand Studios.
Deb,
That was a total bummer to read that Byline is having trouble…they were good to me in an early early part of my freelance career. I hope they get past whatever it is that’s making things rough and keep at it…
Thanks for the list. The way that I look at, if I can write 2 $15-$25 articles in an hour, I making anywhere from $30-$50 an hour. That is double what I was making as an administrative assistant and I don’t have to drive to work, worry about work clothes and I get to stay home with my kids (which is the most important to me.) I don’t know how a person could complain about $50 an hour? If you do the math, $50 an hour is over a 6 figure income…. sounds good to me!!! Not sure how you could not survive on $50 an hour if you work fulltime 35-40 hours a week?
BTW… I agree with others and if you have 30 years of experience, why would you need someone else to find jobs for you?
Deb, I’m a newbie and just wanted to thank you for the list, too. I’ve sold 4 articles to my local parenting magazine in the last few months…but it’s taking soooo long to be published, that I’m also looking at the possibilities of writing for the web. I need that instant gratification fix!
Even morning now, I make my BIG mocha and sit down to peruse your site. Let’s stop snarling at each other and go write.
Hi Deb,
I agree – I’ve been lurking on FWJ for about a month now. I just got started in freelancing and I’ve landed a few small gigs through job boards like yours. Thanks for taking the time to do it! And as “pathetic” as it may sound, I’m actually pretty proud of the under $20 work I do. To see my name on a published article (even if it’s just on the web), and to know that I did a good job, definitely makes me feel good about it. Hopefully the big bucks will come eventually, and I’m not giving up my day job just yet. Some might mock my low pay, but sucks to them! I’m doing what I like to do!
Hey guys – Even if you disagree, let’s keep it nice. No personal attacks, ok? Check out the above comment policy if you’re not sure of how it works around here.
Thanks.
It definitely got ugly quickly in the comments to this post, and I’m as guilty as anyone of making a snide remark. The real point is, one person’s trash is another person’s treasure, one person’s valuable resource is another person’s waste of time. For those who find the jobs on the list to be below your standards, perhaps look elsewhere, but please don’t make those of us who are grateful for the jobs list feel bad for applying to them. And for those who are proud of taking jobs from this list, be proud, and continue to do good work, and build your reputation. I challenge any of you to find two writers anywhere, much less the writers that check these listings every day, that are at the exact same place in their careers, and that are willing to take the same jobs. Being a freelance writer is hard work, and we should all be supporting each other, not trying to bring each other down. Can’t we all just get along?
@Will: Somewhere along the way, we’ve forgotten we’re striving for “community” here. Instead, it has become a contest of egos. As we are all individuals, our pathway to success and our way of measuring success will necessarily be different. If this experience has done anything, it highlights that fact and hopefully improved people’s self-confidence in their decision to live the writing life.
@ Will: I agree wholeheartedly. We are all at different stages in our journey, and we make choices about whether to work for a particular client and what rates we find acceptable. It takes far less time and energy to click away from a listing that isn’t for us than to take the time to respond with a comment about the perceived quality of the listings.
If you don’t want the term “working writer” to be an oxymoron and you enjoy eating and living indoors, you may need to be flexible sometimes. Just my 2 cents.
It’s important to remember the varying levels of experience when it comes to the readership of any freelance writing blog. Sure, YOU might have 30 years of experience flogging your services, but this list of 50 resources is a gold mine to anybody who is trying to break into the game.
I’ve done my share of bellyaching–I’m a huge complainer about CL, for example….but there are still people out there who use it to find gigs and as much as I have cringed publicly in the last month or two about CL ads on freelance job sites, SOMEBODY out there is reading those ads, replying and getting hired.
In short, it’s nice to be nice.
Thanks Jodee, Joe, and Ed. I’m kinda like the Freshman walking into the cafeteria on the first day of high school, wondering which group of upperclassmen are going to show me the way to survive, and which ones are going to stick my head in the toilet. It’s difficult to switch from a career where your work is largely judged objectively (Engineering) to one where your work is almost wholly judged subjectively (Writing), but it is less difficult when there are people who are willing to show you the way. I’ve been going through this site (and others, but mostly this one), looking for any tips, tricks, and advice I can find to help me be successful. Overall, it’s a good community, full of people who have been where I am now at some point in their career. I’ll keep coming back. In the meantime, I have some writing to do, and some jobs to apply for.
Deb,
Thank you so much for the fabulous listing! Not only is it a helpful resource, it’s a great time-saver as well. Much appreciated.
Jacer
I explored the Text Broker site linked to here, and it doesn’t seem to be such a great site. The descriptions for the writing jobs that I looked at don’t do a very good job of explaining what you’re supposed to write, and, overall, the pay seems to be pretty low. It reminds me a little bit of Amazon.com’s worthless Mechanical Turk site except that it pays just slightly better.
Hey y’all…your comments (positive and negative) are enlightening on both fronts. However, I am wondering if there’s a medium in all of this.
But seriously, I just found out that I’m nowhere close to becoming an English teacher and had put off my journalist dreams ever since…am wondering if there’s any advice/guidance for a newbie here aside from what this author had provided as remarkable and definitely helpful in some areas. I’m looking for reasoning/information based on how to start writing without going back to college (a recent MA grad) since I’m down on my luck finding jobs these days…not that I’m asking for pity-on-me party or anything…
Just a thought on the comment that started this whole comment thread off.
I’ve been watching this site for several weeks now, and wondering why Deb wasn’t posting more entry-level, beginning oriented jobs for people looking to start freelancing.
I see to my chagrin that both the original poster and I were wrong, between this post and the ‘jobs that pay 100 or more’ post immediately after.
So from my heart Deb, I apologize for not looking closely enough, and relying on someone else to do my due diligence for me. Thank you for the lesson, as well, and the high quality work you’re doing for everyone. It would probably be easy to just write people off after some of the snark you’ve received, and I’m glad you don’t.
William
@Josh
You absolutely don’t have to go back to school to start writing for money. If you look at any of the longtime writing sites, including this one, AbsoluteWrite.com and (self-servingly enough) Freelance-Zone.com or WritersWrite.com you will find a overwhelming collection of info on freelance jobs and writer’s markets where the only thing required is knowing what you’re talking about and the ability to string words together well.
In fact, I’d go so far to say that many people who advertise for writers and insist on a college degree are either A)Seeking highly technical pieces or highly specialized work like medical writing, OR B) kind of clueless.
Do a self-assessment on your most important skills and life experience and try to find a niche writing about those skills and experiences. If you’ve been trying to become a teacher, you could write something about what you’ve learned about that process….a good place to start for the right market.
Thanks for the list, I appreciate the hard work putting it together and it gives writers more resources!
Celia,
Then by all means, go get those gigs and stop wasting your time on this blog.
I know all about beat reporting and how much work goes into those $200-1000 articles. I know how many times you may have to drive 30+ miles to get an interview, go to the courthouse to get records and do extensive research to get that article written. I know how my friends who are currently in news reporting are working 10-12 hours a day and STILL struggling to pay the bills.
If you can’t do the math on how much you actually make per article by the time you’re finished, perhaps you need to consider buying a calculator.
Deb, are you going to post my last two comments to you and to the group???
to leave that snippy snotty comment to me from Kelly is ugly… and telling…
ok, maybe there is a glitch computerwise, because what I posted and it is not here was l. I was having a bad day and should not have cranked here, sorry, I apologize 2. did not know this site is for newbies and wannabes 3. even best-selling authors and pros like me can use extra cash in this economy… and 4. perhaps instead of criping at me you could learn something and pick my brains… I HAVE supported myself for 30 years as a writer, and was just featured as a travel writer / blogger as a good example of a niche, and my blog has over 100,200 views… ta da… good fortune !!!
At one point all writers were “wannabes” and “newbies.” No matter where they happen to be on their journey, they deserve to be treated with respect. We all had to start somewhere.
I always hate doing this, but if you’re going to call me out…
@celiasue – I am very fair in my comment moderation. After all, I left your original snippy, snotty comment up. I didn’t put up your last comment because you included a spammy, off topic link to a post about your dog’s birthday party. There is a place to post your link and it’s not in the body of the comment, especially in a discussion having nothing to do with dogs or birthday parties. I have a no spam policy.
Now, this blog is for writers of ALL levels to come and learn from each other, but I insist we treat each other with respect. To look down on new writers call them “wannabees” and insist they embrace you because you have so much to teach them is condescending and insulting. Frankly, no one would have remarked towards you in the manner they did if you didn’t start off on the wrong foot with your original comment. Why would anyone want to pick your brain after you started off by insulting them?
CeliaSue, you are welcome to comment here any time you want, but I will request you treat everyone here with same level of respect you’re commanding for yourself. They may be some new writers here, but they are members of the FWJ community and we don’t look down on anyone for being in a specific point in their careers.
I hate to change the subject here, but…
I’ve long been critical of sites like Demand Studios and HubPages for my own reasons, but this controversy leads me to wonder…
It’s obvious what the advantages of these sites are for newcomers to writing…but do any experienced writers here use these sites? If so, do you find them useful for anything aside from the PR factor?
@Joe – I worked for content sites to supplement my income. I don’t use them now but then I’ve cut my load for the summer. That doesn’t mean I won’t use them again. I don’t think there’s any shame with taking any of the gigs on this list – my only beef is when writers take very low paying jobs and complain there’s nothing else out there, or stick with the low payers and complain about it.
To answer your questions some writers use them to supplement, some do it because they enjoy the subject manner, some do it to stay fresh and some do it for the links back to websites and blogs.
Celia,
Don’t blame Deb for my comment. My comment to you was no more “snotty” than your original comment, which was offensive to the writers on this forum and Deb. Furthermore, I didn’t use my comment to spam the forum with my blog link.
Even your apology contains insults to those writers who are coming here with the intention of starting out. Wannabes? Might I remind you that at one point, you were nothing but a fledgling writer yourself. Why would anyone pick the brain of someone who comes into the “room” with nothing but insults pouring out of their fingers?
You may not realize this and, may time be merciful to you if you continue to fail to realize this, but the world of writing and publishing is changing. Magazines are going belly up. Newspapers are closing their doors. Some of my friends who are editors at large national papers know that in the next two years, they will be without a job because web is replacing print. Do you really think that you’re going to be the lucky one? The one who continues living and working in an archaic form of the industry despite the progress and change that is going on around you?
Here’s the rub, Celia: unless you change your way of thinking, you’re going to be the one desperately pining for a job while these “wannabes” that you’re insulting have already made the contacts, done the footwork and made the name for themselves in this industry that you haven’t because you’re too busy whining and complaining and boasting about a career that is languishing if you continue to foolishly believe that your world isn’t going to change in the next five to ten years.
Furthermore, a blog that has a lifetime view of 100,000 is nothing to brag about. If you want to have a blog that pulls in advertisers, you need to add at least another 0 to that number. I doubt you’re going to get that with a post about your dog’s birthday.
Call my comment snotty and snippy if you want. I call your comments insulting, uninformed and unnecessary. And apologizing while in the same “breath” referring to those who you are apologizing to as “wannabes” isn’t a true apology. It’s yet another way to insult those who you’ll find will one day be your peers if they aren’t already. And those newbies and wannabes are going to be way ahead of the game than you are.
Hi,
First of all, I wanted to say that I found the list of paying sites very informational, and I’ve put the link to your site up in our student’s center.
Secondly, I wanted to echo what Kelly said – about print magazines and even newspapers – going belly up. If you’re just starting your writing career, having articles, blog posts or comments, book or product reviews on the Web is a good way to showcase your writing ability. If you don’t have a portfolio, links to your work can often work instead.
Writing for the Web is definitely different than writing for print – as you know, you need to use shorter sentences, break your paragraphs up, use headlines and subheads, etc. But it’s all good practice.
Other ways you can use leverage your work – even if the current pay is not as much as you hope to make one day – is to print out and send reprints of your articles to prospective clients, use them on your newsroom or in your own article directory on your Website or blog, include a link to the articles from your blog, and use them in your social media networking – if the articles are related to something your market wants to know. (It goes without saying, don’t spam.)
If you’re trying to build your expertise, you can also write and distribute media releases when you get a new gig with one of these sites. Remember, media releases aren’t just for journalists anymore, they’re also one of the ways your prospective clients may be using to find you.
And then of course, you’ve got the option of adding these articles into your own newsletters, or using them as a kind of outline to write a special report – or even an ebook – about the topic in much greater depth. (Because the real money is in publishing and selling your own work.)
All of these things help to brand you as an expert, and give you valuable writing experience and a little “street cred” as a writer.
So while these sites might only pay enough to supplement your income, they give you much more than that in terms of helping you to work on the business side of a writing business.
Deb – I’m glad I found your site, and as I said, I’m recommending it to my students!
Warmly,
Cheryl Antier
Director, Writer’s Business Academy
Host “Business Breakthroughs” and
“Sizzlin’ Summer Seminars” blogtalkradio
Travel Editor, Phenomenal Magazine
CEO, Dream Weaver Enterprises
Copywriter, ghostwriter, travel writer
I want to make a quick correction. I write for Demand Studios. We get only one rewrite on an article. There are $15, $5 and no upfront fee articles also. We have one week to complete an article and four days to do a rewrite. I’ve been writing there for a year.
I’m not sure if Software Judge is still running. I looked at the list of top contributors and the last article published by the number one person was in 2006. I could be wrong though.