I did a little surfing this weekend. So many writers send emails saying they don’t know where to look for work or that no one is hiring. I know this isn’t true. There’s a vast assortment of places – in both web and print – looking to hire or accepting submissions from freelance writers. A couple of hours of research led to my post on the homepage – 50 Places That Hire Freelance Writers. In fact, I found enough people who are hiring that there will probably be another post of 50 more very soon.I don’t think it’s that there isn’t any work out there, I think folks aren’t looking beyond the usual, obvious job boards. If I could find all of those places in a couple hours, think of how many more can be unearthed with more time.
Also, Jennifer Chait begin_of_the_skype_highlighting end_of_the_skype_highlighting continues her series on how to find a blogging job, including interviews with the people who hire bloggers. This week, her interview is with…me. If you ever wonder why blog network owners hire the people they do, visit Blogging for a Living and check out today’s interview and last week’s piece with b5Media hiring editor, Kori Ellis.
Leads…
Web Content Writing Jobs
- Contributing Editors Wanted - Bright Hub
- Freelance Writers – Bright Hub
- Freelance Article Writers Wanted
- Freelance Staff Writers for Heritage Web Solutions
- Jewelry/Fashion Editorial
- Online Writing - $10 – $12/hour
- Freelance Writing for NewMediaHub.com – $100/story
- In Need of Article Writers – $10 – $20/article
- Freelance Entertainment Writer
- Content Writer for Collectibles Website
- Creative Pet Writers
- SEO/Article Writers Wanted - $15/article
- Website Content & Marketing for Construction Firm
Blogging Jobs
- Expert Bloggers for Designer Pages
- Sports Blogger/Reporter - $10/post
- Gadget Blogger Wanted
- Bloggers Wanted
- Vampire Film Blogger
- Celebrity Gossip Blogger
- Bloggers - Local communities
- Sports Blogger/Reporter – Philadelphia – $10/post
- Part Time Blogger – Philadelphia – $10 – $20/hour
General or Miscellaneous Freelance Writing Jobs
- Freelance News Writer – Denver
- Investment Writer/Analyst – The Motley Fool – Alexandria VA
- Freelance Editors & Writers – Brattleboro/Keene
- Short Story/Article Writer (I think) – Car Magazine -Flint
- Financial & Economics Writers
- Practice Test Writer - Waco
- Writer/Editor for 1 – 2 month project – Colchester
- Resume Writer Wanted
- Fluent Spanish Writer Wanted – $150
- Script Writers – Houston
- Versatile Writer Wanted – SFV – $1000/month
- Animation House Looking for Writers for TV/Feature Film Production
- SEO Writer - Santa Monica
- Foreign Language Content Analysts
- Short Stories About Anger - $25/accepted story
- Writer Needed for Family Memoir – Los Angeles – $25/hour
- Research Assistance Needed
- Need Help from Experienced Screenwriter – Hollywood
- Experienced Comedy Writer Needed
- Teen Music/Entertainment Writer
- Credited Animation Screenplay Writer
- Press Release Needed – $50
- Freelance Writer/Reporter Needed - $25 – $50
- Writing with a Financial Flair
- Business Writer Wanted
- Review Writers - NYC
- Terms & Conditions/Privacy Writers
- Article Writer Wanted
- Freelance Writers – San Diego
- Newspaper Freelancer - Bay Area
- Resume Writer
- Maryland Football Writers - $20/article
Editing and Proofreading
- Bilingual French Canadian Proofreader
- Freelance Copyeditor or Substansive Editor
- Proofreader for English Learning Books
- News Editor for Media Startup - Telecommute OK
- Seeking Writer to Help Proofread College Essays
- Looking for Quality Novel Editor – Park Slope
- Temporary Proofreader - San Diego
Copywriting Jobs
- Travel Sales Copywriter
- Copy Writer for Health Care Company Information Technology Sector
- Copywriter for Website Content
- Creative Copywriter Needed
- Copywriter for Brochure
Magazine Writing
Business Plan Writers
- SBA Loan Writing – Business Plan
- Business Plan for Financial Website
Grant Writing Jobs
- Freelance Grant/RFP Writers – Portland – $15 – $17/hour
- Grant Writer – $30/hour – Georgia
- Grant Writer – Los Angeles – $450
- Grant Writer - Raleigh
Technical Writer
- Telecommute Technical Writer – Long Beach – $20 – $25/hour
- Persuasive Technical Writer for Website - Austin
- Technical Writer for Short Term Project – Raleigh
Good luck!
Plenty of people are hiring, and your site is a terrific way to find those folks. BUT. It’s important to remind new writers that you will not find quality (that is, high paying) gigs if you have no quality clips to show off.
Before you even start getting involved with boards like this one, I highly recommend that you build a backlog of at least 5 really solid clips (samples of your published work). While it’s fine to have your own blog, that really only counts as one clip. Consider local print publications (free newspapers and corporate newsletters are fine).
Think about writing for the cheapie blog aggregators like BrightHub and Examiner, at least for a little while — to build your credentials. If you do, choose a topic you absolutely love, so you can walk away with professional clips in the areas you really want to pursue.
Lisa (www.lisarudy.com)
@Lisa – Good advice. However, I don’t think clips need to be published. Brand new writers can often land decent gigs with articles and essays that haven’t already been published. A personal blog might also work. Good writers don’t have to start out low, that can just lead to bad habits and the low paying rut – which is hard to climb out of. If a writer has a good, on topic, well written, unpublished piece of writing, that will do just as well as a published clip – unless a potential client specifically mentions “published” clips.
I think a large issue is the fact that people have expectations which far exceed the realities of pay-rates in today’s economy.
People are still losing their jobs left and right. If you count the number of people who have had their hours cut back and their pay-cut reduced in America, the employment rate jumps from 9.5% to nearly 18%. Almost 10% of people have no jobs, while an additional 8% are working on reduced pay or reduced hours.
If you are a fresh-faced college grad with a non-specialized degree, you can expect to make 15-18 dollars an hour, at most. The average US median wage for 2008 was 21 dollars an hour. You cannot expect to jump into the freelance market and start making 40 bucks an hour right off the start. You have to start small, just like everyone else in every other career in the entire world.
Have realistic expectations. If you shoot for the moon, don’t be discouraged if you miss completely and wind up on Mars (unless of course that’s where you eventually wanted to wind up). I’ll say this…I’m positively SWAMPED for work. I’m in my 18th month of Freelance Writing and I’m making about 25 dollars an hour…30 an hour on the high end. There are writers out there who mock me and claim that I’m in a “low paying rut”, but that’s ludicrous. Sure, the veteran writers can get away with charging 50 or 75 or even more dollars per hour, but if you are under 5 years in the industry you can in no way, shape, or form dictate those kinds of rates because, let’s face it, freelance writing is not a specialized niche trade like being a doctor, a lawyer, a programmer, or a plastic surgeon.
You are competing on a global scale. That means people in India, people in the Philippines, people in Germany, people in Italy, people from all over the globe are competing for the SAME jobs you are competing for. And in the content generation market the bottom dollar is king. If you take 10 writers from 10 different countries and they all have the same skills, the same ability to Google a topic, the same ability to write string together a coherent sentence, then the person who walks away with the job is he who is willing to do it for the bottom dollar. Period.
You can talk about quality all you want, but as I’ve posted elsewhere, content writing is like fast food. It’s quick, it’s cheap, and it’s greasy. Not everyone likes it. But some people love it. It’s what they live off of. Other people like to eat at a steak joint. They pay a little extra, they get a little extra, they spent a little more time at the restaurant, and the food is a little bet better. And there are still others who prefer to cook at home, enjoying an expensive bottle of fine wine. They pay a lot more, it takes a couple hours to prepare the meal, the wine has to breathe for an hour, and in the end it takes you a couple of hours to actually enjoy the whole experience.
Some people want to hire content writers. Some people want the mid-grade quality. And other people want the best money can buy. But you can’t try and sell the 150 dollar bottle of wine to the guy who loves fast food, because he doesn’t care…he wants fast food because it’s fast, it satisfies his need, and he just doesn’t care about wine.
Having good business sense is key. Get out of your rut. Live a Location Independent Lifestyle (LIP). Google it. Stop forcing yourself into a situation where you have to make 4 or 5 or 6 thousand a month just to pay your base bills and make ends meet. Move to a tropical location where you can enjoy living on the beach for 500-600 a month. A little harder if you have kids, but it’s totally feasible.
At the end of the day realize that unless you are a specialized talent, like a doctor, lawyer, or someone who went to school for 8+ years to earn a specialized degree, you aren’t going to generate more than 15-20 dollars an hour for your first couple of years. That’s just the nature of ANY industry, not just the writing industry. Don’t listen to people who tell you that you can walk into freelance writing and make 40 or 50 dollars an hour to start, because it’s a lie. There are very few jobs which will pay you that kind of money fresh out of the gate. You have to build up credentials and experience to be worth that kind of money. Keep it realistic. This is not a get-rich-quick industry.
Keep it realistic. Understand that sometimes, in order to grow roses, you have to get your hands dirty with a little manure and compost. You can’t afford to cherry-pick only the best jobs if you have mouths to feed, a mortgage to pay, car payments to make, health insurance to pay, and so on and so forth. Stop being picky, and do what you have to do to pay the bills, rather than complaining about how there are a lack of opportunities out there. Because at the end of the day, the only person standing between you and success is you. No one else.
Thanks so much for the leads, and the links to the 50 places article. Lots of great work went into this list, and I can tell that some of these leads are promising!
I do agree that writers don’t need to stoop to selling at ridiculously low rates. In the beginning, it’s important to build your identity and samples, and get the hang of things. After you’ve established yourself, you don’t need to work for less than $10 an article (unless you want to).
TW – you say “let’s face it, freelance writing is not a specialized niche trade like being a doctor, a lawyer, a programmer, or a plastic surgeon.”
No, it’s not a profession with a specialized degree attached to it (most of the time), but freelance writing most certainly can be a specialized niche trade.
I make multiple thousands on every federal and foundation grant proposal I write, because that’s one of my freelance niches. I make a good deal on science writing, ditto. Occasionally, I make multiple thousands on curriculum projects, ditto ditto.
Don’t sell yourself short: there’s MUCH more to freelance writing than short, web-published articles on topical issues. Niches are what make the big bucks, for writers as much as for anyone else.
Lisa
Lisa said:
“Don’t sell yourself short: there’s MUCH more to freelance writing than short, web-published articles on topical issues. Niches are what make the big bucks, for writers as much as for anyone else.”
Exactly. If you think low paying content is all there is, that’s all you’ll get. If you aspire to do better, you can and will. It just depends on your goals.
TW – I think you’re partly right. While I think you CAN jump into freelancing at $40 to $50 per, not everyone is going to. So, I don’t think it’s a lie, but it’s definitely not the whole truth. You need niche experience, like Lisa says, or a great deal of non-freelance writing experience.
The trick, to use your analogy, is to find someone who wants to buy that $150 bottle of wine. You probably won’t find many of them at online job boards. You have to use some imagination and ingenuity to ferret them out.
Deb – You’re lists are getting better and better. I like the way you categorize the jobs now. Good work!
Ron
Thanks for the posts and comments. Have a great week everyone!!!
I find it hard to believe that a well-respected, high-paying organization is likely to select a writer with NO credits or credentials or references over someone who has all of those items in place.
Will they hire such a person for an internship? Sure.
But when it’s a freelance gig, major publishers want someone who knows their stuff and can hit the ground running. There’s no way they can judge the abilities of a deadline-oriented for-hire writer if they have nothing but self- published personal blog entries to go by.
Lisa
@Lisa – Of course most hiring editors go for the experience, but my point is to not let that keep you from going for the gold. If you have well written unpublished clips, use them. The hiring editor might be impressed enough to give you your first shot. Don’t let not be published deter you from finding a decent gig.
I’ve found that the more clips I have, the better opportunities I find. Also, most of my early work was for Demand Studios, because I’ve written articles on a wide variety of topics (120 articles so far) I can often point to multiple clips on a particular subject. If you are open to writing about anything there are definitely jobs. I suggest that newbies write the following articles for their portfolio or to post somewhere like associated content: a travel review, an entertainment review, a how-to home improvement article, an interview with a business type, and an op-ed piece about something non-political. If you have these clips you will be able to apply for many of the available jobs. Having your own on-going blog is another avenue to produce clips. Also, if you’re having trouble have your worked reviewed by peers. It’s possible that you aren’t getting jobs just yet because your work/resume/cover letters need some fine-tuning. Let go of your ego and ask for help. The most interesting thing about freelance writing is the way that one job leads to another, and by the end of each month I have increased my expertise in multiple areas. If you keep at it your growth and earnings will steadily increase!
you’d be surprised how many high-paying “quality” gigs are on this site. for me, since last December, here are a few of the gigs I’ve landed through this site and one other writers’ board:
first gig was a $5,000 grant writing job.
second was $4,000 grant writing job
third was a $1,600 advertising writing job
fourth was $1,500 educational publication job
and so forth.
I really feel Craigslist, this site, and the Internet have come a loooong way for freelancers.
Lisa
TW
While I think $25 an hour is low, it is not so low (like the $2 per post listings) that you’d be better of at McD’s. Also, if work is steady, it’s not too bad…But remmeber that you pay your own taxes, overhead (computers, software, repairs, electricity) and health care. You also pay “employer’s half” of FICA (7.5 percent). So if you’re making $25 an hour, that’s like someone who makes $23.125 an hour for an employer — with no benefits. Benefits at Starbucks are something like $5 an hour.
So while you can live on $25-30, it’s still good to look for higher paying assignments while holding on to those gigs (I’d take on more of them myself, even though the better paying items are starting to pick up after a lull).
Anyone have any experience with Cutting Edge Web Services. I just got a reply from them (from today’s listings) and it appears that I would be writing on spec. My articles may or may not be sold, some may be sold immediately, some may take a couple of months to sell. He wants me to start submitting articles to him immediately, but he hasn’t answered my question yet regarding a contract of any kind?
I look forward to seeing the other 50 sites that hire writers post.
Niche writing is great…but it’s unrealistic for writers just getting started in the industry. Racking up the experience in a given niche takes years of working at it before you can be worth the 40+ dollars an hour.
In my previous occupation I made 400-500 USD a day. I’m no stranger to the rates that 15+ years of experience bring along with it. I’m absolutely not a newbie when it comes to starting a business and going it from the ground up.
25-30 dollars an hour + my wife and I live a LIP lifestyle. In other words, we aren’t living in the States. Our *total* living expenses are 500 USD a month. Period. That includes entertainment. This year alone I’ll put over 20k in the savings, which is more money put into the savings in a year of working my arse off making 65k a year when I was living in Colorado and had living expenses of 60k. I fully expect to go up to 40 dollars an hour next year. In fact, I’ve already dropped two lower paying clients in the past 2 months and moved on to higher paying ones, and more than likely by October or November I’ll move into the 30-35 dollar an hour range vs. the 25-30 dollar an hour range. I have no doubt I’ll hit the 40 dollar an hour mark by next March or April, and then 50+ by next summer, if I’m still doing freelance. I don’t plan on doing this for much longer than another year or two, as we have a lot of other irons in the fire and I’m just doing it in the meantime.
I also pay differently on taxes. Since I have a domicile abroad (I’m still finalizing the paperwork and there’s a lot of it to do) and I haven’t lived in the US for over 18 months, I am allowed to make up to 87k a year from non-US sources that I don’t have to pay a red cent on in taxes. Needless to say, I try and keep the majority of my clients from non-US sources. Gotta love that Location Independent Lifestyle that allows me to live the life I want now, rather than waiting until I’m 60+ and retired to enjoy owning a home and traveling 4-5 times a year to exotic locations. I’m 29 years old, we own our apartment, and we are 100% debt free. We went on 6 different vacations last year to various parts of Europe, and this year we have been staying at home decorating the house, putting money into my wife’s part-time crafting business and Etsy shop, and saving up for a car.
Jumping into the market as a fresh-faced newbie and making 40-50 dollars an hour is absolutely a lie, period. Niche markets are not newbie markets. If you have 5+ years experience in a particular field, that’s all well and good, but if you are someone who just started out as a freelancer, then you take what you can get and you run with it. Grocery bagger? 10-12 bucks an hour. Cash register worker at McDonalds or Wal-Mart? 10-12 bucks an hour. Gas station attendant? The same. Have a college degree but no work experience? 15-18 dollars an hour. College degree in a non-specialized field but 2-3 years of working experience? Welcome to the median American wage of 21 USD an hour. Specialized training (niche market) or a specialized degree? 40-50 dollars an hour to start, and goes up from there, depending on your profession.
Niche markets are not the everyday freelance writer. They are specialized markets, which is something I stressed is entirely different in my previous post. If you write for a niche market you will absolutely make more.
What boggles my mind is the amount of people complaining that they can’t find work when I literally see work FLOODING the job sites on a daily basis. The major issue doesn’t seem to be the lack of work, but the lack of motivation by most people. Their standards are either too high OR they just simply aren’t in a dire enough situation. If you are starving, and your family needs to eat, you better be out there doing everything you can in your power putting food on the table rather than standing around complaining about “well, the rates aren’t what I want to work for”.
The only person standing between you and success is you.
@TW – I can appreciate that you work overseas and therefore your idea of a livable wage is different from ours, however, it is not laughable at all to start out with a higher wage. It all depends on where you set your sites and your standards. To say no one who is new can get a decent freelance writing job is wrong. True, most freelance writers choose the easy route. Those who wish to pursue more lucrative opportunities, no matter what level of expertise, can do so if they will take the time and effort to seek better paying markets than the average web content wages. Your way is not the best way for everyone, it’s only the best way for you.
Now, I can understand why freelancers are choosing the easier and lower paying route, and I respect their decision – as I was there myself. However, it is not unheard of (or unreachable )for a brand spanking new freelance writer to get a higher paying job. Why, a copywriter fresh out of college can earn thousands of dollars on one sales brochure if he chooses to go that route. So no, it’s not unheard of and it’s not wrong. Just because it’s not your way doesn’t mean not everyone can go there.
I don’t begrudge any writer doing what he or she needs to (or even wants to do) to survive, but to make it seem like they can’t do better is just not true. I refuse to discourage new writers just because one writer is comfortable with his lower paying earnings. If you’re willing to work hard to find more lucrative work and step away from the same old job boards, you can and will do well – fresh out of the starting gate.
It is laughable, Deb.
Let me put it to you this way.
A person cannot walk into the grocery store as a fresh-faced newbie and go from nobody to store manager on their first day. Why not? Because they have to establish their knowledge in the field first. They have to work their way up from the bottom, OR they have to have specialized training which makes them capable of handling the responsibility of running a grocery store. When you first start out working there you are going to be the cart kid who pushes carts in, or you work the cash register, or you bag groceries. Over time, you work your way up the chain of command until eventually you are the store manager.
In the same fashion, a person cannot realistically (and I stress the word realistically) expect to jump into the freelance writing world and expect to make professional, 5+ year veteran rates in their first year. It’s a farce. It’s unrealistic. It’s not the way the industry works.
Everyone works their way up the chain unless they are spoon-fed or they happen to inherit a business or have a family business that they are a part of. Everyone starts at the bottom. To suggest that people can just jump into the industry and start making veteran wages as a first year writer is ludicrous. This is not meant to be discouraging to writers in any way, shape, or form. It is merely a warning that no, this is not a get-rich-quick industry. It is like ANY OTHER job in the world. You start out as low man on the totem pole and you earn your way up the chain of command by proving your worth, by digging in the trenches, and eventually becoming the top dog.
“Why, a copywriter fresh out of college can earn thousands of dollars on one sales brochure if he chooses to go that route.”
I simply don’t believe that a kid out of college with no experience, clips or references could be hired on a freelance basis, for thousands of dollars, to write a sales brochure for a major pharma company.
That same kid COULD land a staff writing job for the company, and after years of experience could THEN start freelancing in the field. And yes, at THAT point he could command a goodly sum for freelancing sales writing in his area of expertise.
But in this day and age, there are plenty of experienced writers going hungry. Your “fresh out of school” kid is competing with a seasoned writer who’s worked for Pfizer or Merck. I stand by my statement that a good gig requires credentials of some sort — even to get through the first level of screening.
Lisa
@Deb – thanks for another great list; found several jobs to apply for today!
@TW to quote you:
“You are competing on a global scale. That means people in India, people in the Philippines, people in Germany, people in Italy, people from all over the globe are competing for the SAME jobs you are competing for.”
I don’t believe this is true. My market is not the same as people in India and the Philippines that are selling their writing for $2 a post. My market is different. And my market is not likely the same as Deb’s or Sharon Hurley Hall’s markets. No matter where you live you will charge according to your skill level and the amount of time you are willing to put into your work. One niche I write in often has writers that will work for 1/2 a cent per word. My fees are quite a bit higher. But when a webmaster in that particular niche wants quality and reliability, they come to me, even though my prices are higher. When a webmaster in that niche wants just words on the page, they go to the half a cent per word writers. We aren’t competing for the same jobs even though we are in the same niche.
I think it is important to remember that every business person needs to invest in their business – sometimes with money, sometimes with upgrading, and sometimes with time. And we need to factor our prices into that equation. But with no investments your business won’t grow. It will stay just where it is.
Thanks again for the great jobs Deb!
@ Lisa Rudy:
Spot on. And it has nothing to do with believing whether or not that fresh-faced college kid could get the job or not. He wouldn’t. Period. For the same reason I posted in my example just above yours.
You don’t get to skip the newbie years and automatically demand the same sort of wages and respect a 5+ or 10+ year veteran demands. Period. You can’t walk in on your first day of the job at the bank and suddenly go from teller to branch manager. You have to put in the time, work your way up the chain, and earn your way up the ladder. After a few years, sure, you can demand those kind of rates, but when you are first starting out, absolutely not.
It has nothing to do with discouraging writers. It has to do with making sure people set realistic goals.
@Lisa Rudy – As someone who worked in publishing for over a dozen years, I can assure you that someone fresh out of college can certainly land such a lucrative opportunity. It’s rare but it’s absolutely not unheard of. It’s similar to a brand new novelist with an instant bestseller. A good writer’s portfolio speaks for itself. Sometime portfolios include unpublished clips. If they’re truly great, they can get gigs regardless of experience. Many businesses are willing to give newer writers a chance if they’re very good at what they do. It doesn’t happen every day but it does happen. I’m not going to be the one to discourage anyone in this community from going for it.
@TW – There’s a difference from working in a supermarket and writing. The difference is if I, as a brand new grocery store worker walked in for a managerial interview, I’d get laughed out of the place. However, if I, as a brand new writer, presented a potential client with amazing writing sample and sold the hell out of my work I *could* land a lucrative gig right off the bat. It happens more than you think. There are plenty of occasions where brand new freelance writers pitch $1 a word magazine markets and land the gig. Plenty. I, as a newbie, landed a newspaper column with just a cover letter and a made up writing sample. So yes, new writers can set their sites higher. The only reason they’re not is because everyone is telling them they have to go for the low pay to put in their dues. You’re only competing on a global scale because those are the markets you’re going for. Other writers might have different, higher aspirations, and it’s absolutely not unrealistic for them to think they can do better. It might take them a lot longer to land a high payer. But it can happen and it HAS happened.
If you are a brand new writer walking into a meeting with a handful of other writers with 5+ years experience behind their belt, you are absolutely going to get laughed out of the meeting in the same way you would get laughed out of the meeting if you were the lowly bank teller walking in on your first day trying to become the bank manager without putting in your dues.
Again, it’s what’s realistic and what’s not. And suggesting that fresh-faced college kids or newbie writers can waltz in and demand 5+ year veteran wages is absolutely not realistic. It’s a falsity.
Also, I’d appreciate it if you don’t dictate to me what my aspirations may or may not be, as you have absolutely no idea, having not walked in my shoes
TW wrote:
“If you are a brand new writer walking into a meeting with a handful of other writers with 5+ years experience behind their belt, you are absolutely going to get laughed out of the meeting in the same way you would get laughed out of the meeting if you were the lowly bank teller walking in on your first day trying to become the bank manager without putting in your dues.”
I’ve been in meetings where the brand new writer was chosen over the older writer because the new writer was fresh, creative, hip, and less set in her ways. Plus newer writers are easier to work with as many of the older writers have a sense of entitlement or take issue with editorial suggestions. Have you been in an editorial meeting before, TW? Because I have. I can tell you new writers are chosen for lucrative jobs all the time. The ones who choose to take the time to look for lucrative jobs, that is.
“Again, it’s what’s realistic and what’s not. And suggesting that fresh-faced college kids or newbie writers can waltz in and demand 5+ year veteran wages is absolutely not realistic. It’s a falsity.”
It is absolutely not unrealistic. It doesn’t happen as often but new writer can pitch the same markets as older writers. Fresh faced newbies can’t “demand” the same wages, however, they can set realistic higher wages. They may not land the $12,000 job but they might land the $1000 or $2000 job. I’ve seen it. You can’t tell me it doesn’t happen because it does. Not everyday, but it happens. Writing is not a managerial position, it’s a creative position. Those who are looking for creativity will hire the best person for the job not the most experienced person for the job.
“Also, I’d appreciate it if you don’t dictate to me what my aspirations may or may not be, as you have absolutely no idea, having not walked in my shoes”
I apologize. And I would appreciate it you would not say it’s unrealistic for brand new writers to seek higher wages having not sat in the same editorial meetings.
I actually have sat through several editorial meetings, thanks
Skype is a wonderful tool. Again, I’d appreciate it if you refrain from dictating my personal experiences when you haven’t walked in my shoes.
I’ve also been the 19 year old kid in a room of 40 year old veterans and thinking at the time that I was hell on wheels, but in retrospect I was a newbie who didn’t have a clue. And I can totally understand why that group of 20+ guys all over the age of 40 were rather irritated that I was allowed in the meeting. I was a grunt. A newbie. A nobody who didn’t have a clue what was going on. Just like the bank teller on his first day. The grocery bagger on his first day. The freelance writer on his first day.
You yourself admit that it’s not common. I’m not saying a new writer CAN’T pitch ideas. I’m saying it’s unrealistic for him to demand 5+ year veteran wages and respect. There’s a difference. And no matter how you might want to try and spin it, you aren’t going to come up with any realistic evidence to prove otherwise. You might have a couple of random examples pulled from your personal experience but that does not make that the norm. It makes it an exception. And while exceptions CAN and DO exist, they are NOT realistic in terms of setting goals and aspirations. Suggesting to people that exceptions are the normal run-of-the-mill experience is a falsity. It’s false hope, and completely unrealistic.
You work your way up from the bottom. That’s the way it works. Sure, you might get lucky on the way, and if you work hard, and put in your time, you will earn the right to advance. But you cannot walk in on the first day of the job and expect to have the CEO position handed to you just because you “think” you are good enough. You have to earn it.
Agree to disagree, Deb. There’s realistic, and then there’s unrealistic.
Actually, TW, I won’t agree to disagree because I don’t believe it’s unrealistic for new writers to seek higher paying opportunities. You can’t make that decision for them, TW. Not when you’re not walking in their shoes. We’re not talking about bankers, store managers or CEOs. We’re not talking about anything being “handed to them”. You can’t even compare. We’re talking about writers, a whole different breed. Creative jobs and managerial jobs are very different. Freelance jobs and managerial jobs are very different. Writers can and have done well fresh out of the gate and if I’m the only one here who can convince new writers of this, so be it.
Thank you for having our back, Deborah. My first ever writing gig was for a national magazine. They only use one or two freelancers for each issue and they liked my pitch so much they picked little old, wet behind the ears me. I never had to write for web content or blogs because the magazines pay so well.
My boyfriend landed a freelance gig right out of college thanks to your advice on cold calling. You told us about your experiences with local graphic design places and that’s where he turned his attention. He writes brochures, sales letters and website copy but he earns hundreds of dollars for each job. It wouldn’t have ever occured to him to charge $5 for his work.
T.W. you can’t tell us new writers can’t find jobs paying in the hundreds. I’m living proof and so is my boyfriend. There’s no way we could be buying a house on Demand Studios wages but we’re buying one now. You may not agree with Deb but it doesn’t mean she’s wrong.
We may be talking semantics here.
“A good writer’s portfolio speaks for itself. Sometime portfolios include unpublished clips. If they’re truly great, they can get gigs regardless of experience.”
Agreed. But you’re assuming a “good writer’s portfolio with some self-published clips” — which means an individual with existing published clips, NOT an absolute neophyte who would like to write.
“you can’t tell us new writers can’t find jobs paying in the hundreds. I’m living proof and so is my boyfriend.”
Agreed. But the “high paying gigs” aren’t in the hundreds, they’re in the multiple-thousands. So you’re doing great, but there’s still a good deal of room for raising your income over time.
“My market is not the same as people in India and the Philippines that are selling their writing for $2 a post. My market is different.”
Agreed. But simply by using the words “my market” you’re making it clear that you have experience in certain markets — which again means you’re coming at this from the perspective of a veteran writer, not a newbie.
The only point I disagree with, Deb, is ” It’s similar to a brand new novelist with an instant bestseller. ” IMHO, business writing is NOT like a brand new novel. In my 20+ years of experience in almost every type of writing (EXCEPT advertising, which I gather is unique), creativity is valued — but nowhere NEAR as highly as the ability to write in the client’s preferred style, on deadline, with the right number of words.
In other words, while creative writing is an art — and is valued by patrons of the arts — business writing is a craft — and is valued very differently. That’s not to say that business writing doesn’t require creativity (it does!), but the most “creative” writer doesn’t necessarily get the gig — unless that writer can show that she can write in the client’s style, on time, and take editorial criticism.
Lisa
By the way — as an aside — as a very young woman just out of school I did dabble in freelance writing, doing some low-pay work for my school alumni magazine, a local neighborhood paper, etc. I hung onto those clips over the years, and when I became a fulltime freelancer some eight years later those clips were very helpful indeed.
Much more helpful, of course, was my three years of full time professional writing and all the contacts I’d made during my staff writing experience LOL!
Lisa
“In the same fashion, a person cannot realistically (and I stress the word realistically) expect to jump into the freelance writing world and expect to make professional, 5+ year veteran rates in their first year. It’s a farce. It’s unrealistic. It’s not the way the industry works.”
I did it. I was hired by EBSCO publishing for my first freelance writing job, based on the fact that I had a Master’s degree and experience living abroad. Period. No clips at all. I am still writing for them, among other clients. I think it’s possible if you have a unique set of criteria that someone is specifically looking for. Rare, but possible.
This has to be one of the saddest bunch of comments I’ve ever seen on this blog. All of this…crap is just what new writers do not need to see.
“Oh, you’re new, don’t expect to do better.”
“It is unrealistic to think you’ll do well, you’re new.”
“No clips=crap jobs”
Can’t. Can’t. Can’t. Can’t do this, can’t do this. A big bag full of can’ts shoved in the faces of new writers. God, no wonder new writers hesitate to ask anything from those of us who’ve been around the block. Because all they read is CAN’T.
I had no clips when I started and my very first work was sold to a very popular local magazine. Before you scoff, this mag has subscribers globally. Next gigs? Articles for a few papers in Singapore on a sweets shoppe. Then a column in a digital magazine, then several more. Not a clip was needed for any of those. I’ve written for Bausch and Laumb, Oreck, Tide, Clorox, (the Clorox Advertising and Public Relations Manager is now a friend on LinkedIn), and more. You’ve more than likely read my work somewhere on the internet…oh and ghostwriting…trust me, you HAVE read me, more than once.
All that, as a new writer with no clips. No Master’s. Not a a degree behind me other than good old’ life experience. My clients knew/know that, too.
So, what’s the point of this?
Get off your Can’t Horse. Stop selling discouragement disguised as your take on reality to writers who need a hand up, not a knee in the gut. The only thing coming across is “I’m afraid these new writers will be better than me.” Competing…please. If you think you’re in competition, then there’s something wrong with you. You’re not going to win an award for winning – unless there’s an award for biggest-never mind, not my blog so I can’t finish that.
Wow hot debate! I just came by to say thanks for making the job list even better.
Julie, the reason we hideously negative people are suggesting that clips are helpful is because…clips are helpful. In the vast majority of cases that I’m aware of, some proof of writing ability and experience is the key to a sale.
If you were able to sell your first work to a national magazine with no clips, no references and no experience, It’d be wonderful to know how you did it. My experience in selling to national magazines involves not only pitching stories but also providing editors with clips to show both writing quality and experience. But obviously your sale worked very differently.
Were you selling a piece of short fiction? Or was this a typical feature? Were you selling a finished article or a concept? Were you paid for your work, or was this a non-paid opportunity?
In short, what advice would you give to writers who prefer to sell without any clips or background to top-paying markets in the US and abroad? “Just Do It” is a great morale-booster, but details would sure help.
Lisa
Lisa- My article was on Autism and how it affected my family personally. It was a feature. I wrote the article, submitted it and waited. That’s it. The editor liked it, but the story wouldn’t run for 9 months. Kind of a bummer. So I asked if she needed anything for upcoming issues, sent a list of ideas and she chose a few.
It isn’t suggesting that something is helpful- it’s the phrasing. You’re coming across as if it can’t be done, so someone new shouldn’t even hope. I might have my writers mixed up, but wasn’t it Linda Formacelli (forgive the typo if that’s wrong) who sold to Cosmopolitan with her first pitch? /That/ is what we should be doing, showing and setting examples.
My advice is to never give up. Find a national that doesn’t ask for clips. Pitch them. Two markets I know of personally that will take new writers and pay very well- AAA World Magazine and Woman’s World. I wrote each editor and asked for their guidelines, plus mentioned I would like to submit via email. Guess what? The editors were friendly, sent guidelines, and email addresses. Neither asked for clips, only invited pitches/queries.
Something you’re forgetting is that a well crafted pitch or query can show your quality of writing. Unless someone else wrote it for you, that in itself shows experience. Grab the attention of the editor, then hold it…odds are they will know that you can do the same to their readers.
Pitch, query, write for guidelines, ask for assignments if the editor gives you a positive rejection. Never stop. Never give up. And above all? Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t.
That help?
When I first got it in my head to do some freelance writing, I queried Gourmet magazine! They were very gracious and sent me an address to which to send my article proposal and some published clips. I hadn’t done ANY writing before (at least not since school papers in college), so I got scared and didn’t send anything in. I felt it might be reaching a little too high as a total nube with no experience and no published clips. But it is encouraging to know, Julie, that some magazines accept writers with no experience =). Maybe there’s still hope out there for me! I’m just starting out and just doing the web content gigs, but you’ve inspired me to look for other avenues of work =).
I have been finding, as a Canadian, that it is difficult to find gigs that hire non-US nationals/residents. I’ve gotten all excited about jobs and then found that…”oh and you have to be a US citizen or resident”…d’oh! Would anyone have any suggestions as to where to look for work if I’m not a US citizen?
Thanks everyone!
@ AprilMay:
You clearly are not a newbie. You had a Masters degree and enough “specialized training” to warrant you a higher paying wage than someone fresh off the street. Which is something I talk about in greater detail in another comment somewhere in this thread. You weren’t a newbie walking in, and your niche experience allowed you to demand a higher paying position and land a job that a newbie WITHOUT a Masters degree and your level of experience never would have landed.
@ Karen:
Good on you. You are an exception among the norm. Again, I never said it was impossible. I said it was unrealistic for new writers to expect to be able to demand the same amount of respect and wages as a 5+ year veteran. And as far as not being able to buy a house on Demand Studios wages, you’d be surprised. I know of several writers who make over 2500 a month using DS, as well as from other sources, so don’t knock it until you’ve been there.
@ Deb:
Actually, you can agree to disagree. Just because your opinion is different than mine doesn’t make yours any more valid. We both have relevant experience working in the field. You have some people who agree with you, some people who agree with me. It’s doesn’t matter whether or not you “get the last word” or “prove your right”. I’m conceding the fact that I won’t be able to change your mind no matter how much proof I give you, because you refuse to believe that managerial positions are the same as writing positions. At the end of the day they are both jobs which require a healthy level of experience to demand the top rates. If you are one of the lucky few who are exceptions to the norm, then congratulations, but you are not the case in point for every writer out there, or every single writer on the face of the planet would be rolling in the dough, owning yachts, writing Pulitzer prize winning prose, and we wouldn’t be seeing the current job trends where people aren’t making enough money to put food on the table for their families or complaining about a lack of work. Which, I might add, is how this entire topic was started in the first place.
I’ve already conceded that yes, there are exceptions. In fact, many exception stories have been posted in this thread. I congratulate you individuals on your optimism and your pluck, as well as your success. But I stand by my belief that it’s entirely unrealistic to expect 5+ or 10+ year veteran wages when you are a fresh-faced writer with no experience to back you up. Yes, exceptions can be made. They will be made. But they are not the average, they are not the norm, and they are few and far between.
If everyone out there was the “exception”, then we wouldn’t see people complaining about lack of work. We wouldn’t see people complaining about rates. We wouldn’t see people complaining about how they need so many credentials to land the job they want. Writing is no different than any other job in the world. You start out at the bottom, and you work your way up. You don’t get to be the CEO on day one. You earn that right over time.
Agree to disagree. We’ll all live longer.
Furthermore, I’m reminded of the line in “A Good Year” when the French girl says to him something about him “making the assumption that I am only here because I choose to be here. What if this is where I want to be?”
I choose to work 4-5 hour days because I don’t need to make 65k or more to live like a king. Understandably not everyone is in that position. I made a blog post recently discussing the age-old topic of “your possessions cease to be possessions when they come to possess you”.
My second writing gig was one I landed without any writing clips based purely upon my background as a third generation ceramic tile and natural stone contractor. It paid 100 dollars per article. I did 10 of them. They took me about an hour apiece to write, with roughly 30 minutes of editing on revisions. I landed that job with no previous writing clips or experience…but I had relevant niche experience that enabled me to land that gig. So I am not a stranger to the “exceptions” outside of the norm. But I also realize that it was an exception…not the norm.
I have one job that pay me 40 dollars an hour. I have another job which pays me 65 dollars an hour. I also have the bulk of my work from a content generation site who keeps me busy enough with 20-25 dollars an hour content that I don’t have to spend my time browsing forums, cold-calling, and doing everything in my power to drum up another client. When you lump that all together, it comes to the 25-30 dollars an hour. In the meantime my fiction is selling, my wife’s hand-crafted shop is about to launch, and we are riding high on the tides.
I guess at the end of the day I am trading steady work for higher paying work because I don’t have to look for clients. That means I save literal hours per day that I’m not spending browsing job forums, cold-calling, writing queries, and doing other things which take me away from my writing.
I’m also not one of those writers trolling the websites complaining about a lack of work OR the rates I’m getting paid. When I look at how many people talk about “needing” to make X amount of dollars per month, I go back to that age-old topic of possessions possessing you.
Life is what you make of it.
bah I mis-typed
That’s what happens when you haven’t had your coffee yet. What the quote meant to be was something along the lines of “What makes you assume that I am only here because I have no other place to go. What if I choose to be in this place?”
Must….find…coffee…
So basically…you’re just bitching to bitch, right? Because you’ve taken up a lot of room to do just that.
I’m simply presenting an alternate viewpoint. You can agree or you can disagree. But I would appreciate if you would leave your hatefulness at the door when you come in to post. Thanks!
TW, I’m not sure why you’re so insistent on trying to hold other writers back. As has been pointed out to you, a person writing in New York or San Francisco is not necessarily in competition with those abroad. You seem to be almost aggressively opinionated in your insistence that new writers cannot and should not expect high pay. Though it’s certainly not always the case, and many have to start small, I still agree with Deb’s point that a newbie with a dynamite portfolio has a fighting chance.
Not at all, Allison. I’m simply stating that it’s unrealistic to “expect” veteran respect and wages out of the gate. Impossible? Not at all. As other people have proven, and I myself have experienced, exceptions can and do happen. But as you yourself and many other people write, these experiences are *not* the average. They are not the norm. They are exceptions.
If they were the average, we wouldn’t see so many people complaining about a lack of work, low-paying jobs, and “how am I ever supposed to get going when X company requires me to provide Y samples”.
I am not attempting to hold writers back in any way, shape, or form. I am simply suggesting that newbie writers have a realistic approach to this career, much like any other career. This is not a get-rich-quick, sit-on-the-beach-and-sip-pina-coladas-while-the-paychecks-roll-in career. It is no different than any other job in the sense that you have to work your way up the ladder to earn the respect and rates that veteran writers are worth. Aspirations are great, as long as they are realistic. You cannot expect to walk in your first day on the job and become the editor of the New York Times and demand a 6 figure salary. You have to spend your time in the trenches writing features, articles, querying, and building up your portfolio before you can demand that kind of respect and pay.
Okay, that’s all well and good, but in earlier posts you’ve thrown around statements such as this:
“If you are a fresh-faced college grad with a non-specialized degree, you can expect to make 15-18 dollars an hour, at most. The average US median wage for 2008 was 21 dollars an hour. You cannot expect to jump into the freelance market and start making 40 bucks an hour right off the start. You have to start small, just like everyone else in every other career in the entire world.”
Why the specificity in those figures? Why can’t a talented fresh-faced grad make more than that? Why the lecturing tone?
“Why the specificity in those figures? Why can’t a talented fresh-faced grad make more than that?”
For the reasons I’ve stated multiple times. You can’t walk into any career, even a writing career, and expect to become the editor of the New York Times with a 6 figure salary on day one. You are expected to put your time in while writing in the trenches, earning your way up the ladder until you have earned the right to command the respect and wages that such a lofty position brings along with it.
Suggesting that one should expect (as some writers here would have you believe) to generate such figures as a fresh face in the industry is the issue that is up for debate, and the questionable reality.
The figures I quoted were from a series of immigration articles I did last year for a UK client dealing with surging immigration to Canada and Australia from the UK and US in regards to higher wages but drastically lower costs of living in those countries. I can’t remember off-hand all my resources, but most of it was pulled from US Government websites. The median wage for 2008 was around 40k, (men made between 43k and 45k and women between 34 and 38ish, with a rough average of 40k between them), and when you break it down into 40 hour work weeks (which is the average) it comes out to around 20-21 dollars an hour. This is the average American wage. The actual average household wage further narrows down to around 60k a year, off the top of my head.
Some make more. Some make less. But that is the average. These are the people with college degrees, working at department stores as managers, as supervisors for call centers, as “managerial” types. The “peons” (excuse the term) below that make significantly less, usually around 15-18 dollars an hour, while the regional managers and “specialized” jobs make significantly more (the 40+ dollar an hour range).
Again…you can’t walk into your first day on the job as a writer and expect to be the editor of the New York Times with a 6 figure salary. You work your way up by building a credible portfolio of published work and the respect of your peers. Can you get off to a running start as a fresh-faced newbie with some excellent writing chops and a bucket-full of determination? You bet…but it’s not realistic to tell people that they can aspire to veteran wages and respect right out of the gate, because that’s just not the reality of the situation.
TW wrote:
“It’s doesn’t matter whether or not you “get the last word” or “prove your right”. ”
Actually TW, I’m not a last word type of gal, otherwise you’d see more back and forth from me on this blog throughout the years. I’m not inclined prove anything to you, either. However, I do stand up for what I believe in, and I do stand up for new writers. It is absolutely not unrealistic for new writers to find and land high paying freelance writing jobs and I will not concede my point.
“If everyone out there was the “exception”, then we wouldn’t see people complaining about lack of work. We wouldn’t see people complaining about rates.”
They’re complaining about these things because people with attitudes like yours are telling them it can’t be done and thus, they don’t even try. If they did they would be pleasantly surprised. The jobs are out there and they’re harder to find – but they’re not difficult to find. As long as we convince new writers they can’t land these opportunities, why should they even try?
Allison said:
“I still agree with Deb’s point that a newbie with a dynamite portfolio has a fighting chance.”
It doesn’t even have to be a portfolio of published clips. I’ve seen newbies write up killer unpublished samples and use them to land the high paying gigs.
TW said:
“Again…you can’t walk into your first day on the job as a writer and expect to be the editor of the New York Times with a 6 figure salary.”
I don’t recall ever saying anyone could. You keep comparing freelancing to full time office jobs but we’re not talking about full time, high salaried positions. Freelance writers can and do land high paying FREELANCE gigs. Not office jobs. Not salaried positions. Freelance gigs. $1 per word magazine jobs and more. They don’t have to settle for $5 or $15 articles if they don’t want to. That has always been my point no matter how many times you stray and try to make my point something else.
“I would appreciate if you would leave your hatefulness at the door when you come in to post. Thanks!”
Though I own this blog and I make the rules about what people should and shouldn’t have when they come through this door, I’ll agree that everyone (even you, TW) should take a look at our comment policy. http://www.freelancewritinggigs.com/comment-policy/
Hey, I was asking a valid question, nothing hateful about it. T.W., I will say this- don’t tell me what to do. I meant it…you’re being redundant and pretty hateful yourself.
Besides…if you’re where you want to be and we shouldn’t disagree…then you must be bitching just to do it, correct? Each long, drawn-out, hot air filled comment you’ve posted has been hateful, actually.
So, basically, take your own advice.
Freelancing is no different than an office job. You still have to “prove” your worth to clients with writing samples and “proof” of your expertise in the field. That’s what cold-calling, providing writing samples, and evidence of your worth is all about. It’s still an industry which requires samples, dedication, hard work, and time spent involved in the trenches before you can really progress into the veteran levels of pay-scale and respect.
There’s realistic, and then there’s sugar-coated.
I stand by my points. You stand by yours. You don’t want to concede your point, and I won’t concede mine. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.
Julie:
You accused me of bitching just to hear myself bitch. That’s pretty hateful, no matter how you look at it.
Not a single one of my posts has been hateful. They have merely been a different side of the fence that doesn’t agree with some of the people who have posted here. I have been respectful in all of my posts, I have never once accused someone of “bitching”, nor have I made any other personal attacks. I am simply agreeing to disagree with certain individuals.
Furthermore, I am not one of those writers complaining about the industry, about the lack of jobs, about the lack of clients, about the rate of pay, or the plethora other issues that most writers seem to want to complain about. I’m actually extremely satisfied with my current existence, and the issue with realistic expectations is something I find very close to my heart, which is why I’ve been so vocal on this particular topic.
You can agree with me or you can disagree with me, but don’t accuse me of bitching just to hear myself bitch, because that is a personal attack with no other purpose than to provoke a response due to your disagreement with me. Agree to disagree and move on.
Look T.W., I asked a question. You post long, drawn out disagreeing posts to nearly every post that Deb makes concerning pay rates, you say that new writers can’t make higher rates, and so on. I disagreed. I posted why. You have yet to prove that writers can’t do just what so many others have done- make it right out of the gate. You constantly post negativity, which I find pretty darn hateful.
If you feel attacked, perhaps you need to step back and re-read what you wrote: “What makes you assume that I am only here because I have no other place to go. What if I choose to be in this place?”
If you CHOOSE to be in that place, it is up to those reading your comments to only assume that you’re bitching about payrates and spreading negativity just for the pure fun of it. My question then, still stands. Instead of protecting your offended status, why don’t you answer it.
If you choose to be where you are, then why are you constantly writing these comments with /no other reason/ than to watch yourself type and /provoke/ ? Doesn’t it stand to reason that someone that is truly happy where they are will not try to drag down others that work harder, try harder, and reach for the sky?
I’ll move on when Deb asks me to. So far, according to the comment policy, I’ve asked a question. My choice of words includes only one expletive and no one else has complained. I’ll be as vocal as I like, which includes calling you out on the negativity you’re spending so much time defending.
Perhaps if you spent as much time crafting a pitch and researching markets as you do on being offended and writing ‘reality’ filled comments, all while telling those who disagree with YOU to move on, you’d find yourself happy in a new place. A successful one where you could encourage new writers to spread their wings, instead of hiding in a content mill or low skilled gig.
This debate is definitely interesting. I see merits on both sides, but I’ll have to agree with TW on this one.. I’m one who believes strongly in paying dues, and working your way up to build respect in the community and to gain perspective and experience.
Of course I love hearing the inspirational stories of people who just sent in one query and they have a staff column in a magazine or newspaper ala Carrie Bradshaw, but those are definitely the exception, not the rule. I like to consider myself exceptional, but I also like realistic, practical advice.
Although I know TW does not need me aiding in his defense, I do see the difference between his comments and those who disagree with *him*. He is discussing the industry, while others are discussing him. It seems to me that men and women handle disagreements differently. Men can argue merits frequently without becoming emotional or attacking each other personally, but it’s hard for women to do that. I hate to say it, but that’s what I’m seeing here.
I’m sure not one cares what I think, but I’ve invested so much time into reading these comments that I thought I’d add my two cents.