Every now and then a company called “Articles and Content” advertises on the WAHM.com (Work at Home Mom) WAHMs Who Write forum. There’s always controversy and sometimes it gets ugly. Here’s why.
Articles and Content requires their writers to pay a $10 fee each month in order to get work. While some writers are questioning why anyone would pay to work for a company, others are defending the “administrative fee” because they earn a couple of hundred dollars each month on a regular basis. I worked in corporate America for 20 years and another 8 as a work at home freelancer. Never in that time have I been expected to pay anyone for the privilege of working for them. And what exactly is an administrative fee? Shouldn’t Articles and Content charge enough to their clients so all administrative costs are covered by their clients?
If you go to the Articles and Content Website you’ll see they charge clients $10 to $20 for articles. This of course means the writers aren’t earning very high wages for the majority of the articles, especially when you consider A&C needs their cut. My suggestion to them would be to stop making writers pay for their inability to charge enough for articles.
I don’t care if it’s $10 or $100 no one should have to pay a client for work. It’s wrong, it’s insulting and it’s unethical.
Discuss…
UPDATE: Further investigation shows the $10 monthly fee doesn’t guarantee a job. It just allows writers to look at the job boards and apply for said jobs. So you might pay the monthly “administrative” fee, but never actually land a gig. Writers don’t get a byline for their $5 per article, $10 per month fee either. Draw your own conclusions.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
Let me get this straight…
The same forum where women are complaining they’re being targeted for cheap labor are OK with a business targeting work from home mothers for a pay to work scheme?
The mind boggles.
January 9th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
According to them, this is why they charge the fee:
“The fee tends to ensure that the quality of our writers are good and their intentions are serious.”
Wow.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
That’s really sad. They are able to offer the clients a lower rate since they charge the writers a monthly fee.
Yesterday I saw a similar online service. They were charging the clients $20 for 1000 words. If their price is that low for the client how much will the company pay the writer? It can’t be much.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
@ Amy,
That’s amazing! When I worked out of the home none of the jobs, I applied for requested a fee to make sure I was “serious” about working.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
@Amy - That’s insulting on so many levels. If they’re not getting quality writes I again suggest they look to their pay scale.
In the 8 years I’ve been writing for my web it’s been my experience that the flakiest writers are the ones who aren’t paid enough so the motivation isn’t there. Eventually they say, “this isn’t worth it” and move on. Funny how decent pay is a good motivator.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
It’s one thing to pay a organization for professional purposes - as in my license for my RN, but I won’t pay someone a fee to give me the privilege of being allowed to work in an unregulated area, like writing. That’s just plain silly.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
The only “serious” intent here is the intent to part clients and writers from their hard-earned cash.
January 9th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Pathetic. Just, pathetic. These same WAHM forum members are defending this place? Like Marijke, every few years I needed to pay my State fees for my license, but I won’t even buy a membership for a site offering job links. Why in the world would someone pay someone $10 a month to pay them slave wages?
Lordy. Deb, I am so glad your board is out here for free and when I get more clients, YOU will be getting my $10 just for being free.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Thank you, Deb, for once again being the voice of reason. You should _never_ pay to work for someone!
January 9th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
It’s always the lowest paid who get ripped off the most. And I’m always surprised at how gullible people are. (I could get political here, but I’ll refrain). In any event, I wouldn’t pay them, but it’s really sad that there are people who will.
Thanks for the heads up Deb.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
We need us a union.
This situation has Cesar Chavez written all over it.
Thanks for standing up on this one, Deb. I really do appreciate it more than I can express.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
@ Erik.
We’ve got one if you care to join: http://www.nwu.org/nwu/
I’m considering it myself.
January 9th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Deb,thanks so much for bringing up this issue recently I was contacted by two companies who wanted travel related content but were willing to pay only $4 for 400 and they wanted 12 articles a day ,at first I was tempted as I have lost two major clients this year but then after reading your forums, I decided the risk of carpal tunnel is just not worth it as I already have a severely strained left wrist ..but I am sure there are other writers who will happily take the gig and these writers are not overseas but here in US itself! we really do need a union as Erik says
January 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
Julie,
Everyone at WAHM isn’t defending A&C. Please read the forums if you want to see for yourself. I think Deb does a great job of posting about these issues, but I’m bothered that people developed their feelings on the forum (and ALL of the writers there) without visiting.
It “gets ugly,” as Deb says in her post, because most people at WAHM argue against it, not because they are for it.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I see low paying jobs all the time. In the beginning of my career, I took them - to get some clients under my belt. After the first few, I stopped. This kind of work isn’t worth it. To pay for work? That’s just plain crazy. But, how is it different from paying a fee to use a bid site like ifreelance, a site that I actually like?
January 9th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
@Brandi, thanks for clarifying, that’s why I asked. I actually have visited there, but not often enough to know about this. I spend most of my time at Absolute Write when I go into forums. Too many forum memberships and not enough time!
My comment about it being pathetic was the scam part. It is so enraging on how people target us work at home parents.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
I can’t imagine paying someone for the privilege of writing for them! And along the same line, many of the Internet Marketing gurus advise their audience that it’s possible to get content for their sites and articles for only $5-$7/page, much of it through Elance and the other bid for work sites. But you get what you pay for and many of the poor quality sites you find online are the result.
The upside is that there is plenty of good paying work out there for writers who can truly write. I write for small businesses and there’s no work shortage. It’s always interesting and I’m learning something new every day.
There are also plenty of interesting niche topic areas wide open online. In other words, you can write about something that interests you and if it aligns with something that people are actively searching for, it can be profitable for you.
My message is simple: Know your craft. Write well. Keep learning. And don’t settle for less than your worth.
January 9th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Erik,
Not a union, just an agreement that we won’t work for such wages. I was a member of a union at a newspaper, and it wasn’t worth it. Management still did what it wanted. Newspaper Guild (not the union I was a member of) has little power, and many unions exist to give jobs to union leaders. Unions are a good idea in principle, but their time has come and gone.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Plain and simple, this sounds like pure greed on the part of a&c.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
I sometimes take low-paying jobs. They help me keep up some momentum when I’m too ill, or too burdened with family responsibilities, to do serious work. But — pay somebody to get those wages? Not in a million years!!!
I do pay my agent/agency a good percentage to represent my print books, and I’m happy to do it. They do things I can’t do, like make publishers honor their contractual obligations and present my work to secondary markets that I wouldn’t know how to reach. That’s a whole different thing from paying for work.
January 9th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
“The fee tends to ensure that the quality of our writers are good and their intentions are serious.” Yeah? Let me reword that for you. “The fee puts money in our pocket from beginners who think they need to pay to get work.” I think THEIR intentions are serious–and obvious.
January 9th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Pay for work? Ridiculous. I don’t know why companies feel that writing isn’t a way to make a good, honest living. There aren’t fees in any other lines of work - I wouldn’t pay a fee in order to fill out an application or turn in a resume to a company. And look at the pay in the end! Basically, you break even after about 2 hours of work and then earn $5/hour (at best). Would anyone seriously accept that anywhere else?
January 9th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
The articles and content lady responded to Deb at the WAHM board:
Which pretty much proves Deb’s point that they’re charging their writers because they don’t charge their clients enough. She’s right. The proof is in the maths.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:02 am
And I responded to Emma:
See the thread here: http://www.wahm.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=510287&PID=2231073#2231073
January 10th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Wait. Didn’t they say on the website administrative costs are to ensure good quality writers? Here she admits it’s because the writers are covering fees and discounts. That’s not fair!
January 10th, 2008 at 12:10 am
I’m very sorry to be the lone dissenting voice here, but I work for A and C, and I do not feel that they are asking too much by charging a 10 dollar fee.
They pay per week, which is very nice. They also have NEVER been late with a payment. There are two reasons that the 10 dollar fee is justified. First of all, I make much more than that per month. Since I have started working there, the least amount that I have made in a week is 200 dollars. (Most weeks I make much more than that.) Even if I only make my minimum, that is still 800 dollars a month for me - or 790 once the fee is taken out. Like I said, most weeks I make more than 200, so I earn more as well.
The other thing that I enjoy about working for A and C is that there is ALWAYS work there. Other sites require waiting for work to be available, bidding on projects, or querying projects in order to get them. This site constantly has projects that I can take - whenever I feel like it. If I feel like logging on and making a hundred bucks, I can do that. I can log onto my computer, work for two or three hours a day only off of the A and C site, and come out with more than enough money for my month.
In my opinion, because I can make more than I need per month and because I never have to wait around for any work to be available, the 10$ fee is fine with me.
January 10th, 2008 at 12:25 am
If they are legitimately bringing work in for the writers but ‘have’ to charge a fee, then it should be a percentage of the income, not a flat rate. If they are really doing a good job hooking up work, they’ll make more in fees that way anyway.
Not sure about US law (and it wouldn’t apply to freelancers anyway), but in the UK it’s illegal for an employment agency (permanent or temp) to charge fees to a workers - the agency costs are always borne by the employer.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:25 am
@ACsupporter-
I can get you the exact same work for free and have done so for people who needed to get low paying jobs to fill in the cracks. Why in the world would you pay a company to find you the exact same thing??
Heck, I AM an ex-writer for someone who gave out content work like this and I can honestly say, if the person needed help I would do it again in a heartbeat, just because she did her best to find higher paying jobs for her writers. She covered the writer’s pay with her OWN cash (and still does) if the clients did not pay up.
Did she ever ask a writer to pay a fee to cover her loss? NO. Does she charge an extra fee for Paypal? NO.
So where does this company get off doing it to you? YOU are the valuable commodity, you and your work. Don’t pay someone to tell you that you’re good enough to get that work.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Oh, its not that I don’t think I am good enough. That’s not the issue. The issue is that I know I am good enough to write for these guys, pay them a 10 dollar fee, and come up way, way ahead. If I want, I can make 100 dollars a day, working for two hours tops for these guys. That’s WAY more than minimum wage, even with the measly 10 dollars taken off at the start of the month. I write for several other people as well, companies that do NOT charge a 10 dollar fee. These are companies that either assign work at set rates, or companies where I take work off of project boards. However, currently, I make much more with A and C than I make with those other jobs. And I work much less than I would work with them as well. The other jobs are dependent on when there is work available, who gets to the work first, and what the employer offers. A and C provides constant work at set rates, and there is always enough to go around.
You guys are very sure in what you believe in and in what you feel is right. And that is absolutely fantastic. But please understand that for a few writers, A and C is the best thing we’ve got going, and it is our best source of income. I can make enough money to cover all of my monthly bills, and still have time for my husband and children as well as all of my hobbies. Just because you choose to find other options, please don’t insult the people who choose to work for them.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:43 am
I wrote for A&C for awhile and the $10 fee wasn’t that big of a deal in exchange for consistent work. I saw it like this: I can spend hours scouring the internet for work or I can pay the $10 fee and spend hours writing and making money. At that time, it was worth it. The benefit (and earnings) outweighed the cost. Isn’t that what smart decisions are all about?
I always thought the “rule” of not paying for work was meant to protect writers from scams. From my experience, A&C is not taking advantage writers by charging a fee. (If anything, the low rates are more predatory than the fee, but that’s a different story.) They don’t just collect money and send writers on a goose chase. There’s actually work and writers actually get paid.
A&C could always lower the price they pay writers and “hide” the $10 fee. Then they wouldn’t get criticized about it. But, then again, since nothing’s perfect, they’d just get criticized about something else. The best thing the company could do is state their policy and the benefits of working for them and leave it at that. If the $10 fee caused them to lose writers, I’m sure they’d figure out a different business model.
January 10th, 2008 at 1:54 am
Is it just me? I went to the site and viewed some of their “samples”. The pet insurance article turned me off in a hurry. After two sentences I’d read “take your pet” or “taking your pet” far too many times to really think the writing is worth the money. After the third instance of that phrase, I’d had enough and stopped reading.
If you bore your target audience before they make it out of the first paragraph, your product is going to flop.
January 10th, 2008 at 2:11 am
One of the writers who works for the site says one can earn $100/day if she “wants”. That’s my normal hourly fee. And I don’t pay to work — I can find the jobs on my own, or have them find me.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:03 am
I’m sorry but if you are serious about a career in writing, don’t EVER pay anyone to let you work for them.
That is the lowest of the low, in my opinion.
The biggest problem here is that the only reason these scum bags are still afloat is because there are people who will jump on board with a pathetic lowlife deal like this, thus propagating the situation.
Simple answer - stop buying your own jobs people!
January 10th, 2008 at 5:10 am
What I find most interesting is the math she used to defend the fee, pricing, etc. I understand her concern over overseas competition, but her mention of paying an editor to edit every single article. Huh? I thought the fee was to ensure “good writing”.
Since I freelance on the side rather than for a living I have my own level of “acceptable”. For instance, on “paid to post” articles, I don’t even look at anything less than $7 for a 100 word post. If I see a writing job offered for less than I’ll take a posting job for, I just skip it. Posting jobs are easy, and earn me search engine traffic, so a normal writing job has to offer me something better to make it worth my time.
January 10th, 2008 at 7:36 am
@ Katherine - I had the same question. This thread reminded me of iFreelance and a few other sites, where a “provider” pays monthly to bid on prospective jobs. (iFreelance was one site where I wished I could’ve seen the winning bids just so i could have an idea of what actually works.)
January 10th, 2008 at 8:46 am
It is hard to follow this discussion because I really feel like you guys have the wrong idea here. A and C is not about a lot of people being scammed to pay 10 dollars a month for nothing. The 10 dollars a month lets you onto the job board -where you can pick from work EACH day. You do not need to ask if you can take the work, or apply to write the articles. You can simply take whatever you want to take. They only let you have one piece out at a time, so this prevents writers from taking all of the work. You take a piece, do it, turn it in, and then take another. You guys might consider it scamming to have anyone pay for work, but in my mind it is not a scam if I am getting good work and making good money off of the deal.I really love this community and I enjoy what Deb has to offer to us all. I just don’t appreciate it when writers make others feel low for the jobs that they choose to take. If the jobs are below you, that is fine, don’t take them. But please don’t bash other writers who want to take a chance on the whole deal. I am making good money at A and C and hope that they stay around for awhile so that I can continue to make the money that I need to make.
January 10th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Acsupporter, it’s more that we see no reason to pay for work when it is out there, higher paying jobs, that no one has to pay a fee to find.
I just wrote about something like this, but not A&C specific. It’s just wrong to make a profit from writers by offering access to jobs. The client should shoulder that responsibility.
Many of us are tired of seeing new writers, plus those that have been around for a long time, fall prey to low wages or needing to pay for offering our services.
By accepting such a practice as ‘ok’, it is opening more doors for more people to take money from us, money that is becoming scarce.
Let me put it in perspective…an upscale resturant opens in your neighborhood and after building a wonderful resume with experience as a top chef, you go to apply. You are accepted as Lead Chef with top salary.
Now, a good friend from cooking school has worked just as hard, but is unable to find work right away. He accepts a job at, say, McDonalds, but has to pay his manager a small fee each month just to come to work. Wouldn’t you feel a little irritated on his behalf?
January 10th, 2008 at 10:25 am
I think there is a big difference between gigs like A&C and bidding sites.
A bidding site is a third party. They get you in touch with the client, but the client pays you. You are responsible for all of your own costs of doing business, because the bidding site doesn’t change the fact that you ARE in business for yourself.
The bidding site charges a fee for facilitating your business by getting you in touch with potential clients.
In this case, however, A&C is the client. They are paying you directly for the articles, not hooking you up with clients. They haven’t done anything to deserve being able to charge you a fee — all they’ve done is hire you, same as any other client would.
Would you work for someone who said, “I’m going to hire you to write my press release, but first you need to give me $10 (or $20 or $50) to prove that you are serious about doing this job”? He!l no! So why should it be okay for A&C to do it? They’re still your client — the only thing that has changed is that they are buying your work for the purpose of selling it to their OWN clients!
To put this another way, do you think that the clients A&C sells your work to charge Emma an “administrative fee” for continuing to bring her business? And if they tried to do so, how long do you think she would retain them as a client?
January 10th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Julie: The fast food argument was a good one, but here is the way that I look at it. If the person who is being asked to pay an administrative fee at Mcd’s so that they can work is able to pay that fee, then work two or three days a week for just a few hours, and STILL make as much money as the chef who has a great salary but works his butt off for 15 hours a day and hardly any sleep, then what is the harm in that? Cos that’s what I do. I pay the fee, and I work hard for a few hours each week, and by doing that I make enough money to live on and everything is happy. I don’t want to spend hours querying magazines, or troll for other higher paying jobs that don’t require fees.
I know that you guys don’t like that sort of thing, so don’t do it. But the people who DO do it do so for a reason, and the reason is that the work is light, the money is good, and they can work part time and still have enough money to go around.
Katharine: Its not the same as a person asking you to pay for each project that you complete, either. I am not giving them a fee for each thing that I write. I am paying them 10 dollars a month, and making between 800 and 1000 per month from them. Thats less than the government would take out of my paycheck if I was working part time for them off line. To me, 10 dollars is a fee that can be overlooked when it comes to pulling in that much money only from them, and only working a few hours each week for it.
FYI i have other jobs that pay more and don’t require fees - I work much harder at those jobs for much more time, and make less money per hour than I do working for A and C.
If it works for some people, why can’t that be ok? I understand that you believe it will lower standards and help create more cheap jobs, but guess what - that’s happening all over the world. Writers in India will write 500 word articles for a dollar. Do you think that if we stop working for A and C that will suddenly mean MORE higher paying jobs for everyone? No, it will mean that they just lower their writers compensations and move to markets that will support them. They won’t stop doing what they do because it gives them a living. And working for them gives me a darn nice living too, so I do it.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:03 am
But the people who DO do it do so for a reason, and the reason is that the work is light, the money is good, and they can work part time and still have enough money to go around.
I wouldn’t consider $5-$10 per article to be good money, any more than I would consider it light work to pound out enough of these to make $100 in two hours (if your claim is true, that is). I also would not consider $800 a month as being “enough to go around.”
And in any case, A&C certainly doesn’t guarantee $800 worth of work each month, so I don’t think my press release example is that far off base. Many copywriters charge several hundred or more for a single press release, so actually paying for the privilege to do that one-time job is probably a better scenario than what A&C is offering you.
Finally, I don’t boycott these kinds of jobs because I think they’ll go away if I do. I simply don’t work for employers 1) who pay rates that are beneath my standards, or 2) whom I consider to be running their business in an unethical fashion. If you want to work for them, then I feel sorry for you, but I’m still going to voice my opinions about any client who charges you for the right to work.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Also, acsupporter:
I am paying them 10 dollars a month, and making between 800 and 1000 per month from them. Thats less than the government would take out of my paycheck if I was working part time for them off line.
Paying $10 to A&C every month doesn’t absolve you from paying government taxes. Freelance income is still considered income. That’s the way it is in the United States, at any rate.
January 10th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
Canada as well, Katharine. Income is income. It’s all taxable.
I’m reading the thread and trying to see both sides of the story. I think there are a lot of heated emotions and personal opinions being tossed around, which makes analyzing the situation a little difficult.
I’ll add in my thoughts: If someone approached me and said, “Pay me $20, and I will offer you work,” I would have to answer, “Let me take a look at that.” Paying to gain isn’t a bad thing.
My first question would be: Is the whole affair legit and morally okay? I won’t take on work that goes against my morals and my beliefs of what is right (*cough* PLR *cough cough*)
Second: What are my gains would be versus my payout. Would I cover the cost through income?
Third: How much of my time and energy would I have to spend to earn income?
Fourth: If I did not take a calculated risk and try out the gig, what would be my time and energy required to earn income?
Fifth: Comparing both X and Y for cost, gains, time and effort, which is best FOR ME?
Sixth: Which between X or Y offers long-term income, opportunity and growth? Will I go somewhere with this? Is the status a plateau? Can I improve my rates or gains?
Maybe taking an objective view might help sort things out. Set emotion aside. I will say one thing: While it’s fine to debate and to attempt to change a person’s mind, continually bashing them without sympathy or empathy (as I see going on in this thread with ACsupporter) and criticizing the person’s choices isn’t going to win anyone any points. That’s the perfect way to create a good, defensive mindset and have someone dig in their heels.
On the other hand, I’ve done that myself when I feel strongly, so I’m not saying I’m any better than anyone else. I’m just saying that you catch more flies with honey than with manure.
I should know. I shoveled manure for a few years way back when
My Coke can always caught more flies than my shovel did.
My second question would be
January 10th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
I’m not bashing Acsupporter, not at all. I just hate to see anyone pay for work, but if it works for someone, I guess it works. Just not something I would do. Querying magazines and high profile sites/jobs is part of what I love. I don’t want to pay any fee and never have anyone go…”Julie Fletcher, the writer?”
But, I haven’t checked A&C to see if it’s all ghostwritten, so I could be wrong about missing out on anyone ever knowing a name.
January 10th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
@ Julie - Querying is part of what I absolutely hate and one reason I don’t focus my efforts on magazine work. I’d love my name in lights, but it’s not really my main goal. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t a good goal, and I’m glad that you’re doing the type of work you love. But in the web content work? Ain’t no fame. Just money
Did some more thinking (or not thinking enough) on the matter.
See, I’m not entirely sure of the difference between paying an auction site a membership fee or paying A and C. I may not have had enough coffee here, but essentially, it all boils down to the same. If a writer wants to peruse the jobs - in either case - they pay. Where’s the difference?
Sure, sites can say the fee goes towards this or that or this, but no site guarantees work and basically, it’s pay if you want to play, no matter how you slice it. Seems to me A and C is a middleman like any other site, only with fixed rates.
Now, I haven’t checked to see whether the pay rates are fair - that’s another story. From what I hear, no, A and C isn’t fair.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
James- One reason I do webcontent where I can be fmous (lol, riiiight).
I joined a Freelance site to bid on jobs just to see if I was on the wrong side of the fence. No fee upfront, I think they take it out of your payment if you’re chosen, if I understood correctly. Then I can make an informed, unbiased (unless i get screwed) comment from now on.
January 10th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
@ Julie - iFreelance may have a limited, free membership (can’t remember offhand) but it is a paid membership and there are commissions raked back.
January 10th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
“… but if it works for someone, I guess it works.” - Julie
I think that’s the point. It does work for some people. Paying for information/leads/jobs isn’t always a bad thing. For example, if you are person who doesn’t like/want to spend your time reading job boards, sending in resumes, etc. Something like this company might be good for you. You just pay your $10 each month. Then the assignments are right there in front of you for the taking (as I understand it). You just click on them and take them. Simple, if that’s what you are need.
As for the rates, I know a lot of writers are against me on this but I never bash other writers for taking low rate jobs. I don’t know and can’t judge others’ personal circumstances.
When I first started sports writing, I did it on the side for fun for FREE (gasp!) for a variety of websites. I didn’t care at all that I wasn’t getting paid - I had a full-time job. I wasn’t even considering a writing career. Through time, I found I liked it a lot and I developed my writing skills.
Eventually I wanted to write full-time (I have been a full-time freelance writer/blogger for a few years now). I have been a credential NBA writer/reporter for the last five years. If I didn’t write for free in the beginning, I would never even have known this is what I really wanted to do. I would have hated it at that time if a bunch of other writers were bashing me for writing for free.
Also, sometimes gigs that are $10 for 300 words (or whatever) can be very lucrative. If it’s a topic you know well (off the top of your head), you can type fast, and very little research is involved. You can probably make $60+/hour. That’s not a bad gig. Some of you may still think $60/hour is beneath you. But it’s good money for others.
Just my two cents.
–Kori
January 11th, 2008 at 12:01 am
Deb, your addition to yesterday’s post is not quite correct. The 10 dollars DOES guarantee you work. It gives you access from to the job board, and once you are there, you may take as much work as you want. There is ALWAYS work to take on the job board, and once you have been accepted and paid your 10 dollar fee, you may take any articles that you would like to take, at any time of the day or night, with no application process. Its like paying 10 dollars to eat at a free for all buffet. You pay your money, get in the door, and then take as much as you would like to take. There are no restrictions on how many you can take or how much money you can make.
As for the rest of you guys, I understand what you are saying and you should know that was never the question. I just wish that people in these discussions didn’t get so heated and (a little bit) mean when someone else has a differing opinion. A and C is not hurting you. You aren’t losing any money by doing it, nor does it hurt your career in any way for others to do it. You might think that it overall lowers the standards and makes things worse for everyone - but if what you all say is true there is a definite divide between “high paying jobs” and low paying ones such as A and C, and A and C is not going to hurt your higher level, high paying jobs. Apparently there is a very thick line between these two types of jobs, so I don’t see that having A and C around is going to bother yours in any way. So if you don’t like it, don’t do it. But PLEASE realize that for lots of people this type of work is not only good, it is lucrative and worth it. You might not think making 2500 a month is a good wage - that’s what I currently make (with all of my freelance jobs) - but guess what, I work five hours a day, five days a week, and I’m making more than a first year teacher in my home state. (- who, by the way, work probably 12 hours a day and put in good time on weekends as well to get everything done) You’ve got to look at boxes bigger than your own and realize that just because your living wage is much higher, some people live more cheaply. I don’t want to be rich, anyway, I simply want to make money so that I can continue to be at home with my family.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Thanks for the clarification AC Supporter. I appreciate your setting the record straight. I respect your loyalty towards A&C and also respect you as a fellow writer.
I still don’t think a writer should be responsible for a client’s administrative fees. Even if you’re making good money with the site, you’re being taken advantage of, simply because your client expects you to cover her costs.
That’s not how it works. If she has expenses she needs to charge more to her client, not take it from her writers. She wouldn’t have a business if not for you, yet you’re being punished? If you’re earning $5 per article, it means she’s making you write 2 articles for free because she has expenses. Not your problem, not your fault and very unfair.
I understand this is a situation that works for you and I’m not trying to knock you or anyone working for A&C. I just want people to be aware that what they’re doing is highly unethical.
January 11th, 2008 at 12:57 am
@ Deb - I’m still not getting it. While I’m not showing favor of A and C, I do want to understand what you feel is unethical. Elance charges a membership fee and takes earning commissions. Elance doesn’t charge buyers at all - writers and all sorts of other providers keep Elance alive and healthy.
Is this unethical? Or is it alright because the underlying principle is simply worded differently?
If A and C had said the $10 fee was a membership charge and that they were a middleman, not a client, would that have made everything alright?
I’m not arguing, but I am trying to understand.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:03 am
@James - The owner of A&C said she has to charge writers $10 in order to cover her costs. She pays editors to edit each article, she has fees for depositing money and she offers discounts to the client. So she’s charging the writer to cover her expenses. Why should writers have to pay for editors and Why should writers have to pay because she’s offering discounts to her clients?
For the record, I don’t believe in paying fees for job boards, bidding sites or any of that. But to have writers cover your costs is unethical.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:04 am
@James - She’s charging writers to keep her clients happy. Instead she should be raising her prices and keeping both writers and clients happy.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:10 am
I’m sorry if I came across as “a little bit mean.” One of my buttons got pushed: It ticks me off when people make the argument that low-paying or unethical jobs are okay simply because boycotting them won’t make them go away. In my opinion that’s a really weak argument for accepting work that is demeaning and/or unethical.
And yes, I do feel that A&C is being unethical. Mind you, if you were paying a fee for a respected membership and high-paying leads, that would be one thing, but you’re not — you’re paying for the right to do the same low-paying work that can be found on almost any job board.
I think the question for me would be: By paying this monthly/yearly/per job fee, am I getting something that I can’t find elsewhere for free? If I can get access to cash cow jobs by paying a fee, then I see nothing wrong with that. But regardless of how the fee is defined (administration fee or whatever else), I see no point in paying for the privilege of staying at the bottom of the totem pole.
Finally, James, when I was explaining the difference (as I see it) between A&C and bidding sites, I was actually referring to bidding sites that don’t charge an overhead fee: Anyone can browse jobs, and the commission on each successful bid is the only thing you pay. That’s the only type of bidding site I have experience with.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:16 am
@Deb, I think you’re right with your definition, but I would add that she’s charging writers to keep her clients happy and still be able to maintain her profit margin. That’s what I think is unethical — she’s essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Not to mention, it’s a really BAD business model that requires you to charge your service providers in order to stay afloat!
January 11th, 2008 at 1:19 am
I guess I don’t even know what the 10 dollars is used for, whether it is a membership fee or an administrative fee or whatever - and frankly it has never mattered to me. I just see it as an expense of the job. Someone on the WAHM board mentioned that 10 dollars a month is less than you would pay in gas money to go to and from work each day for a full time job. Or you could look at the cost of eating out for lunch if you worked somewhere outside of your home - probably more than 10 dollars a month. Or - 10 dollars a month so that you can stay home with your kids instead of putting them in daycare - or so that you have the time to cook your family dinner instead of buying them take out. If you stop focusing on what the 10 dollars is exactly used for, and look at the pure cost to income ratio of it, it is hardly a drop in the bucket. That’s how I look at it. Ethical by everyone else’s standards or not, I can make peace with it.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:28 am
LOL Well, I never said that the method of A and C was particularly smart or one built on succesful growth. It’s rather stupid, actually. Better writers equals less overhead equals more money and profit for both business and writers and a happier clientele.
@ Deb - Okay, I understand a little better. You have issues with all methods of working that make writers pay a fee, not necessarily only A and C. That makes more sense.
@ Katharine - Someone up there said it best (sorry, can’t find the comment!). If it saves time searching for work and helps connect client money to your pocket while also increases your potential for future work, I think a fee is worth it. Think smarter, not work harder.
But of course, if you can get the same thing - less work, more clients, more pay - without paying a fee, by all means, free is the best way to go.
Thanks, everyone, for putting up with me and being patient while I figured out where the real issue is.
Seems to be that a poor business model is the root of cause.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:40 am
Jame’s first post on this subject is so true and is the only way to determine if the job is right for you or not.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:44 am
Yep, I agree. Poor business model. They could always charge the clients a dollar more, but instead they choose to charge the writers.
@James> I’m sorry, but I don’t see the potential for future work in this. The way I see it, A & C is an outsourcing company, not the client. The writers won’t know who the clients are. I’ve worked for outsourcing companies before for around 6 months (no, I didn’t pay any type of monthly fee). They did put money on my pocket but no subsequent work resulted from my time with them.
For everyone who thinks A&C works for them, then good for you. But don’t let your employment with them keep you from finding higher-paying gigs for FREE.
January 11th, 2008 at 1:53 am
Well put, Mariella!
January 11th, 2008 at 3:03 am
Thanks Katharine
Well, based on observations, there are those who’d totally forego networking and trolling for job leads when they see writing only as way to make “extra money” and an opportunity such as A&C’s presents itself.
Some become afraid to jump ship even after they find higher-paying gigs because of fear that these new gigs won’t have a constant flow of work like what A&C can offer them. The result is that they miss out on great opportunities because they become afraid to take risks. Of course, what I’m saying is only based on my own and my friends’ experiences. It might be different for others.
You’ve got to evaluate your stand. If you forego finding higher paying gigs or find yourself missing out on good ones because you’re working for A&C, then you’re paying a LOT MORE than just the 10 bucks required of you to work for them.
I guess it all boils down to your end goal as a freelance writer and of course your current needs. I do think however, that many good and resourceful writers won’t last long with them the moment these writers realize that they could write for more without paying 10 bucks per month.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:17 am
Some become afraid to jump ship even after they find higher-paying gigs because of fear that these new gigs won’t have a constant flow of work like what A&C can offer them.
I think you’re exactly right. It’s scary for many writers in these situations to exchange security for fair pay.
This I think is especially meaningful:
If you forego finding higher paying gigs or find yourself missing out on good ones because you’re working for A&C, then you’re paying a LOT MORE than just the 10 bucks required of you to work for them.
Beautifully said. Seriously. That’s one of those discussion-ending statements — because what else is there to be said once that point has been made?
January 11th, 2008 at 3:30 am
Just something that strikes me as odd is their payscale and maybe someone can help me with this: as of Nov of last year here is the payscale I got as a response to my query to them:
[QUOTE]We have a small administration fee of $10 per month to be paid on the first of every month, to cover costs such as editing.
Writer’s payments are as follows:
Prices:
Up to 250 words - $5 per article
250 - 400 words - $7 per article
400 - 600 words - $9 per article
600 - 800 words - $11 per article
800 - 1000 words - $13 per article
- Wage Payment is made every Saturday by Paypal although all articles must be in by Friday noon GMT time.
- We must emphasize that these articles are for the web with the primary consideration being keywords so please keep the keyword ratio in mind when writing articles.
- We have a strict 48 hour turnaround on all articles and if late we will terminate your contract with us, as this may loose us clients.
- We do expect you to take articles that you have no knowledge about the subject as most of them you can simply use search engines for research and content, this will include subjects such as gambling.
- I must at this stage stress that under no circumstances will we accept copied work, absolutely no plagiarism. We do have a tried and trusted way to find out if you do and your membership will be terminated.[/QUOTE]
If they are paying $5 for 250 words, how many hours do you have to write to earn the $800 - $1000 a month. to me that seems to take a lot of time away from family plus the burn out factor. Not only that but I was a huge part of the discussion on the forum and I still think that someone who wants to pay me $2 for a 400 word rewrite AFTER I PAID $10 just to see the low paying offers ought to have their business plan examined (I was going to say “head examined but that wouldn’t be PC would it?)
Anyway - it seems that paying someone $13 for 1000 words barely covers the fee they require and then we still have to cover OUR cost of doing business… The math just seems off to me.
January 11th, 2008 at 3:50 am
For me, ( I have been working there for a few months) the majority of the projects have been in the 600 and higher word range. so, once I have written one, I have covered my monthly fee. If i am only writing 600 word articles at 11 dollars, that is less than 20 articles per week for me. There have also been (lately) many projects that pay 20-25 dollars each. when I am doing those, I can do 8 of them and have 200 in a week. Both of those scenarios are very easy for me to do. I personally can make the 800-1000 per month working about 10 hours a week for A and C. that’s just me though, and that is why it works for me.
January 11th, 2008 at 5:16 am
@ Nikki - OUCH. Is that what they pay? Screw that; ditch the job.
@ AC Supporter - If you’re making that kind of money in ten hours, you’ve discovered the secret to Superman. And not in a good way.
@ Mariella - Just in case you were lumping me in with “those who’d totally forego networking and trolling for job leads when they see writing only as way to make “extra money” and an opportunity such as A&C’s presents itself,” I thought I should clarify something. Because I am exploring a discussing and viewing all sides to make an informed choice on my opinion does not mean that I’m only out for a fast buck. I wouldn’t want to be painted black for trying to see all sides. Guilt by association doesn’t exist in Canada.
@ Katherine - There’s always something more to be said
I think it isn’t so much the fear of exchanging security for fair pay. I think it’s fear of the unknown and fear of failure.
January 11th, 2008 at 5:29 am
I can write fast, and I can write well at the same time. That’s what I do, and that’s how I make the money that I make. That is why I can afford to take low paying jobs and not work around the clock. It’s just what I do.
Its no superman or anything like that. And it certainly IS in a good way, both for me and for my clients. They enjoy the fact that I can write quickly, and write well. I am often approached for “right now” type of projects - someone backs out on 20 articles, I can do them in a day. Its part of what I do and what makes me sell-able, I guess. And also part of what makes A and C work for me in particular.
January 11th, 2008 at 5:49 am
@James> I’m not lumping you with anyone. As I said, I was making a generalization based on observations and personal experience. Just to make it clear, none of my comments are aimed at you or any other person in particular, other than that comment telling you that I don’t see the possibility of getting future jobs out of this. You didn’t even cross my mind when I said that.
I think I understand the A&C writers’ side more than majority of the people posting on this thread do, having worked with outsourcing companies before, myself. The only difference between them and me is that I never paid a monthly fee of any sort for having had the privilege of working for my erstwhile bosses.
January 11th, 2008 at 5:58 am
@ Mariella - Thanks. Gotcha. And you’re correct - no outsourcer charges fees.
@ AC Supporter - I won’t comment on my opinions of that quantity of writing in that period of time, unless you’re working about 10 hours straight with no breaks.
January 11th, 2008 at 6:09 am
Thank you for not commenting, James, as it is impossible for you to tell the quality or quantity of my writing simply by knowing how many articles I can do in what period of time. I have always been a fast writer, fast reader, fast talker. I believe that people should play to their strengths and do what they are good at. That is why I am in this business. I have methods to my researching, methods to my writing, and the ability to do it quickly, cleanly, and well. Therefore, even when I’m doing articles at 5 dollars each, I’m probably doing ten of them an hour - meaning I’m working at 50 dollars an hour. A and C is perfect for folks like me, and we make it work.
January 11th, 2008 at 6:16 am
@James>> Thanks and sorry for the misunderstanding.
****
To prevent being misconstrued, please note that when I say I make generalizations based on observation, I meant observation as a whole and not an observation of this thread. I network extensively and have seen lots. Writers and data entry personnel WOULD pay to get work. Some get scammed, some don’t. Some would kill for the amount those who don’t get scammed, earn.
January 11th, 2008 at 6:18 am
And as for the comment that there are people who are afraid to jump ship out of fear, I could say that because I’ve experienced it myself. It wasn’t pretty, but I was finally able to and I’m sure glad I did.
January 11th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Ten an hour? Holy…poopysnake.
January 11th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Holy poopysnake is right. 10 articles an hour seems just a little ridiculous to me, even if someone is a super speedy researcher, thinker, and typist.
Even if someone has the ability to do that, why would they want to? How can that be considered “light work”? Sure, I guess you can make $50 an hour writing 10 $5 articles, but you can also make $50 an hour writing two $25 articles.
I used to write for A&C and am neither an avid supporter nor a bitter basher. I simply discovered, after writing for them for almost a year, that I was wasting my time (and money, with the $10/month fee) there, and moved on.
January 11th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
@ AC - At over a proclaimed 91.6 words per minute (non-stop, 1 hour), you should perhaps contact Guinness and give the current typist a run for her money.
Most writers need half an hour to write a good article, and more if it’s to be high quality, backed by research and stats - and most importantly, if it isn’t rewritten or plagiarized off the Internet.
Of course, those who scrape content, rewrite, and pass it off as their own can certainly write faster than that.
Immunity to Kryptonite does come in handy, though, I suppose.
January 11th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
It takes a while to submit my articles although I’m knowledgeable about the topic. (I’m receiving my Masters Traditional Naturopathy.)
The articles I write are related to alternative health; however, I still need to back up what I know with facts so I always refer to a variety of sources such as books, internet, and professionals.
January 11th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
I have to say that the idea of bidding for jobs is totally repugnant to me.
Obviously, the client will go for the lowest bidder, which usually turns out to be an Indian who will do a 1000 word article for $2.
And for those bidding sites that charge a fee for membership…even worse!
These are unethical.
And the whole bullshit story about how paying $10 for guaranteed work is ‘ok’…well sorry but that is unethical from the A and C provider’s point of view.
Punishing writers just cos they need their costs covered?? That is utter balls.
If none of you writers took the pitifully low-paying jobs and conditions that are ethically questionable, there would be plenty of higher paying work for everyone cos the lower paying providers would be pushed off the scene.
It is people like acsupporter that keep wages lower for writers. We’re all trying to make a living here ya know! Your gullability and lack of your own standards just makes things worse for everyone else.
James - I think that is another good point. What kind of articles are these people rolling out? Crap articles will get you nowhere apart from going from one crappy paying, low conditions job to the next.
Wake up people!
January 11th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
@ Sarah - You may have a predjudiced opinion of bidding sites. We get some work through those, and we don’t work for less than $60 an hour. There are definitely bidding sites that don’t pay (Get a Freelancer, anyone?), but there are some that have a reasonable clientele who understand writers need food to live.
It’s also inaccurate to make sweeping statements that all buyers on all bidding sites always award only to the lowest bidder. Not true. Not true at all.
I don’t see being charge a membership fee as unethical. Don’t golfers pay membership fees? What happens when it rains all summer and they can’t golf? It makes sense to pay for a premium service. It’s deciding what benefits you get from that service that determine its worth.
But I’ll agree with everything else you said
January 11th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
@Sarah- I for one have written for A&C and I will have you know I do not put out “crap articles”. I for one research my articles before they are written. As for the low pay, it might low to you, but for poeple who are looking for more pay than the $2 and $3 jobs, this place beats them thumbs up.
Because of their opportunity, I have further my own writing career to include writing for myself and advertising my services. If I would not have spent the last few years building a reputation for myself, I would never have been able to get my career off the ground.
Not everyone is born into making top dollar off the bat. I have listened to many recording done by some off the most successful website owners on the Internet and they did not start off rich, they had to pay people to do things for them and many times give their products away free or at a huge discount to grow their business.
That being said, this is exactly what A&C offers writers. A chance to make money that is acceptable and gain a style of writing before being rejected over and over again without knowing why.
They do give feedback and support to the write, which is needed to become successful. No one starts out successful, not anyone, I do not care who you are, you need a start somewhere.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:44 am
“@ AC - At over a proclaimed 91.6 words per minute (non-stop, 1 hour), you should perhaps contact Guinness and give the current typist a run for her money.
Most writers need half an hour to write a good article, and more if it’s to be high quality, backed by research and stats - and most importantly, if it isn’t rewritten or plagiarized off the Internet.
Of course, those who scrape content, rewrite, and pass it off as their own can certainly write faster than that.
Immunity to Kryptonite does come in handy, though, I suppose.”
Well, of course now. This is why it does no good to discuss things rationally with most of you people. I try to explain to you why it makes sense for me to do what I do. And what do I get in return? Sarcasm, insults, and jokes at my own expense. Is it any wonder that I came into this discussion without giving my real name? You’d have to be stupid to comment a major dissenting view under your own name here. You guys are so set in your own ways and believe so much that the way you do things is the only way to do them that as soon as someone presents a view that is different from your own you must knock them down, accuse them of either cheating or doing the job poorly, and tell them that not only are they shaming themselves by working like they do, but they are also damaging the profession.
Pamela, thanks for your logical thoughts on the matter, you are absolutely right.
January 12th, 2008 at 12:51 am
I don’t think we need to be insulting towards anyone working for A&C. It may not be for all of us, but we shouldn’t knock the people who choose to work there. My issue is with the fee, not with the people writing for the company. A&C Supporter ,again, I appreciate your passion and your loyalty and I apologize for many of the remarks made here.
Please. Let’s be respectful. Just because we don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean we have to be insulting/
January 12th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Thank you Deb, you are right, if you want to discuss the fee, that is one thing, but for someone to insult the writers who they do not even know, or know how they work, is not an active discussion about the fee. It is insulting and it is what ruins a topic of discussion which normally lately leads to no good.
January 12th, 2008 at 1:21 am
My apologies. I could have perhaps worded my comment differently.
January 12th, 2008 at 5:27 am
Just wanted to point out about James’ note about WPM speed - the current record is 192 wpm, held by Natalie Lantos, from 1998 (from one source) and another lady with an average of 150wpm over 50 mins, steady at 170 and highest at 212wpm. 91.6 wpm is no that fast…I type faster than that, recorded. I average out at 100 wpm because I type differently than most. My fingers are always on the right keys, but I NEVER use the backspace button - I keep typing. I spell check, review and edit when I’m done getting out what I want to type. My brain works far faster than my fingers, but by ignoring spelling and or misplaced letters, I can type faster and fix it with spell check at the end. =)
January 12th, 2008 at 6:31 am
@ Just Another - The average speed of a regular typer who is transcribing and not creatively authoring is about 60wpm (prepares for someone to check his stats) on a QWERTY keyboard. Anything over 90 is moving like absolute lightening. Possible? Certainly - not for the average person. For 10 hours straight? Torture.
Note that both of the typists that you mentioned were using a DVORAK keyboard and not a QWERTY layout. Big, BIG difference in typing speed.
But it’s still damned fast
January 12th, 2008 at 11:03 am
@ACsupporter- I only said ‘Holy Poopysnake’, stole a nice word from my daughter.
I’m shocked, but I have done content writing and have a system for research as well. I can do 25-50 in one night and I have a client who can back me up on that. Most were 500 words. But, 10 an hour struck me as superhuman and caused the holy sheet exclamation. No insult meant.
@Everyone else- I mentioned trying out a bidding site just to see if I’ve been too predujiced in my views. I joined yesterday an with this experiment I’ve already landed two new clients who want me to take over long term assignments. Surprisingly, I was the lowest big on one and in a PM worked out a higher fee than my original quote. Both clients mentioned my style of writing compared with others as a selling point. Plus, this is where I asked for a deposit for good faith.
I will have to pay a small commision, but in the end, I may stick with this site to fill in those gaps in the month when I need cash. The good thing is I can just do an initial bid, accept payment through their escrow, then afterwards work more assignments from the same clients on MY terms without commission. For now, this is looking lucrative.
At least, until I get my name in lights.
January 12th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Erm, sorry for the typos, it’s pretty late. Must remember to not comment during sleep deprivation.
January 13th, 2008 at 1:12 am
I see so many slamming not only the writers, but also those offering jobs for the content writers. My thoughts in a nutshell are these:
1. If the pay is lower than what you feel you need to survive - don’t take the job.
2. If you’re feeling like you are getting the bum end of the stick - quit - go back to a nine to five job.
3. Not all organizations that offer web content (written by writers for them) are scum. The few that I work for are fair, honest and have a lot of integrity. If you’re not smart enough to figure out who the good guys are - you have no business working in this market.
4. Pay an administrative fee - nope, not me. There are jobs out there where you can write and get paid without paying anyone for anything.
5. You rail against the $10.00 an article pay - but here’s reality - I work, maybe 4 hours a day, 5 days a week (20 hours total) taking jobs like this. Where has it got me? Well lets see, in the last year - a decent used car, a new laptop, diapers, formula and clothes for my grandson oh and money to blow on eBay. Not bad - couldn’t make that kind of money working part time in the brick and mortar world, for sure.
So my suggestion is this - if you don’t want to do content writing, fine - don’t do it. But don’t blast those that do - most of us are doing just fine, thank you.
March 14th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I need Home Base work now